The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 12:06pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 201
I have a whole slew of new stories after I ended up working 18 games over two days at a 5th-9th boys and girls tourney! "Native American" rivalries, intentional fouls, 2 T's were given out, gang signs were flashed, coaches were sat down, other so-called "referees" not showing up for games and my first correctable error.

Here's the correctable situation... It's my eighth game of the day, it's late, and my dogs are tired as well as my mind. There's a kid running the clock and a parent of the visiting team is running the books. I learned a good lesson here too.

Keep in mind this is my first year and I have a recent HS grad with no ref experience and his whistle has been noticeably silent.

It's an 8th grade very competitive close boys game and both coaches aren't in the best of moods. They aren't happy with my partners calls - or more so his non-calls - and all I hear are their "big men" are getting hammered underneath and for me to do something about it.

With three minutes left, Red is up by a few points and is fouled by Blue down low. My partner finally makes a good low call and comes out to report it. We've been switching as I'm trying to keep good mechanics throughout the game.

It's a non-shooting fouled so I administer Red's throw-in from underneath and they end up scoring 2 points.

Blue then inbounds the ball and begins to move towards the front court when Red decides to put the press on.

Blue makes a pass which is deflected by Red and goes OOBs. My partner signals the call and points in Blues favor right in front of the table. I push partner, he goes down the court and I begin to administer the throw in when the parent keeping the books tells me there should have been a one-and-one on the last foul for Red, not a throw-in.

I instinctively go into an immediate first year panic mode as the parent apologizes for "forgetting" to notify the reporting official there was a bonus shot coming. The parent was from the team who was a few points down in a very tight, heated and close game which didn't help matters with the other team, coaches and parents. Tempers were flaring and I was working to keep everyone calm.

An argument ensues between the Red and Blue coach on what happens or doesn't happen and how the points and clock should be treated. Red Coach is yelling at the score keeper laying blame on him and accusing him of cheating for his Blue team. It's obvious they've met in other tournaments and aren't overly friendly with each other based on the play and hard fouls given.

Tell me what you would have done, and I'll post what I did do later today.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 12:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
By rule, there's nothing to be done -- it's too late for the error to be correctable. Get both coaches together, explain, and don't let them jaw at each other. Get the ball back in play asap. If the one coach keeps harassing the book person, T the coach, and give the book person a little chat about hanging in there. Next year, let some other green horn lose their dogs in this tourney!
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 12:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 246
Rainmaker is correct. This is not a correctable situation. They would have had to notify you before the ball became alive again after red made their basket.

Play on, sorry coach by rules there is nothing that can be done. You could also suggest to the coach that he have someone on the bench keep track of the fouls so that this doesn't happen to him again.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 12:44pm
M.A.S.H.
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,030
2.10.1/2/3

I'm thinking 1, not sure though.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 12:44pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Lightbulb

The clock properly started on Red's throw-in.
The Red score and Blue's throw-in is the 1st dead ball after the clock properly started.
[This the first dead ball after the clock properly started and is when the error is yet correctable.]

The OOB off Red [2nd dead ball] and Blue's throw-in is next dead ball (7.1) after the clock properly started.

After the 2nd dead ball the error is no longer correctable.
Count Red's last basket and Throw-in to Blue at Table.

mick


Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 01:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 298
Send a message via AIM to lukealex
If I am correct, the error was correctable after the first throw-in with the clock properly starting?
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 01:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 11
Ok what about this one? Happened to me in a tourny this year. We are up by 1, final seconds opponents have to foul. Foul my best free-throw shooter, book says team foul 6. Next throw in, fouled a weaker shooter. Book says oops, that's team foul 8. It was the first dead ball, I lobbied to have the better free throw shooter at the line. I lost the argument. We won by 1.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 01:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by yukonmiller
Ok what about this one? Happened to me in a tourny this year. We are up by 1, final seconds opponents have to foul. Foul my best free-throw shooter, book says team foul 6. Next throw in, fouled a weaker shooter. Book says oops, that's team foul 8. It was the first dead ball, I lobbied to have the better free throw shooter at the line. I lost the argument. We won by 1.
Ms. B.F.T. Shooter should have had a 1-and-1 with the lane cleared and then Ms. W.F.T.(Shooter should also have had a 1-and-1 with players on the lane. That'll teach the book person to "goof!"
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 02:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 201
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
The clock properly started on Red's throw-in.
The Red score and Blue's throw-in is the 1st dead ball after the clock properly started.
[This the first dead ball after the clock properly started and is when the error is yet correctable.]

The OOB off Red [2nd dead ball] and Blue's throw-in is next dead ball (7.1) after the clock properly started.

After the 2nd dead ball the error is no longer correctable.
Count Red's last basket and Throw-in to Blue at Table.

mick



AAARRrrgghh!!! And I thought I totally NAILED it! Even went back and reread the correctable errors section the next morning.

So here's what I did. 1) I let the time on the clock stand. 2) Went back and allowed the bonus throws and then 3) gave the ball to Blue for a throw-in on the OOB's.

I TOTALLY missed the first dead ball after Red scored and considered the OOB's play to be the first one. I explained it as such to both coaches and they ended up being in agreement which was fine because that's how we were going to do it anyhow!

There shouldn't be any difference in the application of a deadball/correctable error even though you have a running clock either, should there? A deadball is a deadball whether the clock runs or not, correct?
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 02:30pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Quote:
Originally posted by WyMike
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
The clock properly started on Red's throw-in.
The Red score and Blue's throw-in is the 1st dead ball after the clock properly started.
[This the first dead ball after the clock properly started and is when the error is yet correctable.]

The OOB off Red [2nd dead ball] and Blue's throw-in is next dead ball (7.1) after the clock properly started.

After the 2nd dead ball the error is no longer correctable.
Count Red's last basket and Throw-in to Blue at Table.

mick



AAARRrrgghh!!! And I thought I totally NAILED it! Even went back and reread the correctable errors section the next morning.

So here's what I did. 1) I let the time on the clock stand. 2) Went back and allowed the bonus throws and then 3) gave the ball to Blue for a throw-in on the OOB's.

I TOTALLY missed the first dead ball after Red scored and considered the OOB's play to be the first one. I explained it as such to both coaches and they ended up being in agreement which was fine because that's how we were going to do it anyhow!


There shouldn't be any difference in the application of a deadball/correctable error even though you have a running clock either, should there? A deadball is a deadball whether the clock runs or not, correct?
WyMike,
Yes, that seems to be the case.
Yet, I don't think this a a perfectly written rule in any case.
Not only must we understand the "timing" required, the scorekeeper must also understand this rule in order to make us aware of the problem in that timely manner. Your scorekeeper may have had a *feeling* for the rule, but told you at first chance, which was a touch late.



mick


Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 02:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
WyMike,

I'm sure you've probably had somebody (or several somebodies) tell you this already... But you want to try and maintain an awareness of how many team fouls each team has in the half. If they're on the scoreboard, that's a big help. But if they're not, then you need to keep an approximate count in your head. Anytime there's a foul and you think you're nearing the magic number, ask the book. Don't wait until you're at seven to ask, ask on 5 or 6 to verify that you're mental count is correct. Go to the table every-so-often during breaks and check the team fouls too. It gets more difficult as the day wears on (because you're mentally tired and after so many halves, they all run together in your mind), so you need to be more vigilant the more games you work.
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 02:52pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by WyMike
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
The clock properly started on Red's throw-in.
The Red score and Blue's throw-in is the 1st dead ball after the clock properly started.
[This the first dead ball after the clock properly started and is when the error is yet correctable.]

The OOB off Red [2nd dead ball] and Blue's throw-in is next dead ball (7.1) after the clock properly started.

After the 2nd dead ball the error is no longer correctable.
Count Red's last basket and Throw-in to Blue at Table.

mick



AAARRrrgghh!!! And I thought I totally NAILED it! Even went back and reread the correctable errors section the next morning.

So here's what I did. 1) I let the time on the clock stand. 2) Went back and allowed the bonus throws and then 3) gave the ball to Blue for a throw-in on the OOB's.

I TOTALLY missed the first dead ball after Red scored and considered the OOB's play to be the first one. I explained it as such to both coaches and they ended up being in agreement which was fine because that's how we were going to do it anyhow!


There shouldn't be any difference in the application of a deadball/correctable error even though you have a running clock either, should there? A deadball is a deadball whether the clock runs or not, correct?
WyMike,
Yes, that seems to be the case.
Yet, I don't think this a a perfectly written rule in any case.
Not only must we understand the "timing" required, the scorekeeper must also understand this rule in order to make us aware of the problem in that timely manner. Your scorekeeper may have had a *feeling* for the rule, but told you at first chance, which was a touch late.



mick


I pregame this with my scorekeeper. Rather than trying to explain the whole timing thing in 2-10, I tell him/her that if you discover that we've missed a bonus, hit the buzzer right away and we'll sort it out. And I remind them that there is a timeframe for fixing this kind of error and sooner is always better.

Some may argue that we don't want them signaling us except at a dead ball or when the "offending team" has the ball or whatever. But it is more likely, IMHO, that we'll end up costing somebody some points if we don't correct the error than we will if the scorer buzzes during play.
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 03:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 201
Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
WyMike,

I'm sure you've probably had somebody (or several somebodies) tell you this already... But you want to try and maintain an awareness of how many team fouls each team has in the half. If they're on the scoreboard, that's a big help. But if they're not, then you need to keep an approximate count in your head. Anytime there's a foul and you think you're nearing the magic number, ask the book. Don't wait until you're at seven to ask, ask on 5 or 6 to verify that you're mental count is correct. Go to the table every-so-often during breaks and check the team fouls too. It gets more difficult as the day wears on (because you're mentally tired and after so many halves, they all run together in your mind), so you need to be more vigilant the more games you work.
I'm learning BITS!

Had a good friend of mine in our association moved some things around to work with me this weekend. He does some college work and also works the State Title games. He helped me emphasize a certain area to work on for each game and hopefully we'll get to work together next season more often.

After my last game I stuck around to observe him and his long time partner (who worked the Boys 4A State game this year) run the championship game for the tourney this weekend.

One thing I noticed (I was sitting next to the scorer's table) he was very aware of the foul counts. To the point he asked about a specific players count and when he was told she had four he shook his head and said, "Man and only 2:36 into the 3rd..." and walked off.

His partner also came to the table to verify team foul counts, I try to do this but get so wrapped up in the game I sometimes forget.

Just by being an observer I gained quite a bit of knowledge I didn't need to work for on my own.

And I can't believe I forgot about the dead ball after the shot. It was right in front of me. I even went through the play sequence with the coaches in conference and never counted it... Now I know better and THAT I learned by working for it. Thanks for the responses.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 03:12pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Arrow

Quote:
Originally posted by WyMike
...I try to do this but get so wrapped up in the game I sometimes forget.
WyMike,
Trust that with the more steps you take on the court, the slower the game moves.
mick
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 03:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
Quote:
Originally posted by WyMike

I'm learning BITS!

Yep, me too. I'm finding that my foul count awareness is regressing, again, so it'll be a POE for me in my games tonight, again. :sigh:
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:07am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1