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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 06, 2007, 12:03pm
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Coach and Player Confrontation

Had a interesting situation occur where a problem broke out between coach and player in a 17U boys AAU game. The coach took the player out and was upset with him. While we where shooting F/T's, this confrontation escalated. They begin to scream at each other. Since it was the coach and player I ignored the incident thinking the coach was on top of the situation. My partner administrating the F/T's pointed to me and stated you need to do something about that.

I turn around and the player, now on the end of the bench had to be restrain. He was in tears and he started firing back at the coach. He stood up and said I'm sick of this! Now say something else! The coach turned and sat back down, realizing he probably pushed the kid too far. So the incident kind of settled itself down but at the time, I didn't know what to do? I assume it wasn't the coaches son because no man is going to allow his son to talk to him like that.

My question is, what would you have done? What if this situation escalated even further then it did, instead of the coach backing down, he went the other way? I'm looking for some advise here on how to correctly go about dealing with situations like this because I have never had it happen before in a setting like this. And before we go any further, I'm pro players. I'm always going to be on the players side unless he starts swearing.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 01:04pm
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What can you do? The only part of this incident in your jurisdiction is the language (if there is any profanity) and the coaching box. Other than that, there really isn't much in the rules that lets you get involved.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 01:20pm
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Lightbulb

Walk over and quietly advise the coach that the discussion has become (or is becoming) a distraction to the game.

Perhaps, by taking a few determined steps backward, toward the bench, where you could have better heard and understood the discussion, your proximity may have disarmed the confrontation without a word from you.

Sometimes an eruption is too quick and too unexpected to give us a chance to be proactive, and all that is left is to put the pieces back together as best we can.
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 06, 2007, 10:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Had a interesting situation occur where a problem broke out between coach and player in a 17U boys AAU game. The coach took the player out and was upset with him. While we where shooting F/T's, this confrontation escalated. They begin to scream at each other. Since it was the coach and player I ignored the incident thinking the coach was on top of the situation. My partner administrating the F/T's pointed to me and stated you need to do something about that.

I turn around and the player, now on the end of the bench had to be restrain. He was in tears and he started firing back at the coach. He stood up and said I'm sick of this! Now say something else! The coach turned and sat back down, realizing he probably pushed the kid too far. So the incident kind of settled itself down but at the time, I didn't know what to do? I assume it wasn't the coaches son because no man is going to allow his son to talk to him like that.

My question is, what would you have done? What if this situation escalated even further then it did, instead of the coach backing down, he went the other way? I'm looking for some advise here on how to correctly go about dealing with situations like this because I have never had it happen before in a setting like this. And before we go any further, I'm pro players. I'm always going to be on the players side unless he starts swearing.
I know that you haven't ever read and don't even own a rules book, so here...
You have rules in place to cover bench decorum. Language is merely one aspect of that. Unsporting behavior is a very broad category which could be invoked in this situation against either the kid, the coach, or both. Also team members are not allowed to stand up while on the bench, except for a few specified reasons. Yelling at your coach isn't one of them.
So you have plenty of rules at your disposal to handle this. How these unusual situations are handled or not handled really shows the worth of a game official.
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 07, 2007, 09:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I know that you haven't ever read and don't even own a rules book, so here...
How much money you want to bet on that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
You have rules in place to cover bench decorum. Language is merely one aspect of that. Unsporting behavior is a very broad category which could be invoked in this situation against either the kid, the coach, or both. Also team members are not allowed to stand up while on the bench, except for a few specified reasons. Yelling at your coach isn't one of them.
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, your advise is to throw gasoline on the fire. You see, this is one example where the rulebook could get you crucified as an official. You send an official in there to go insert himself into this incident and you risk making it worse. But that's jmo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
So you have plenty of rules at your disposal to handle this. How these unusual situations are handled or not handled really shows the worth of a game official.
To be honest, I thought about T'ing the player but something in side of me said, no! This could potentially damage this player permanently in his unstable emotional state. I think enough damage had been done up to this point. I also feel that not everything that needs to be done in a game is defined in the rulebook.

Actually, I think Mick hit it on the head which at the time I didn't realize. Believe me this was luck on my part. But by walking over there and standing next to the bench, not saying a word, because I didn't know what to say, calmer heads prevail. I believe my presence dictated that. My concern was what if it didn't and that's why I asked the question.

Now, I'm not the type of guy that believes in punishing one person by itself. IOW's, I'm throwing both the player and the coach out if it comes to that. My question then would be, would the other team be awarded Technical foul shots if I just tossed both these individuals and not enforced a technical? Could this even be done or would I have to call a technical on one or both?
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 10:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School

To be honest, I thought about T'ing the player but something in side of me said, no! This could potentially damage this player permanently in his unstable emotional state. I think enough damage had been done up to this point. I also feel that not everything that needs to be done in a game is defined in the rulebook.
First off, it sounds like you handled the situation well. A little proximity can work wonders. I put your quote on this message because a player's emotional state has nothing to do with how you enforce the rules. Rather than worry about poor little Johnny being upset, maybe his problem is that the coach is finally giving him a kick in the pants that he needs and it didn't go over well. We aren't out there to build self-esteem, we are out there to officiate. If a player deserves a T, whack 'em, don't analyze them.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 11:27am
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Nevada didn't specifically say to call this T. He said the rule is there if you think you need to use it. Personally, I agree with getting a bit closer so I can intervene if it escalates.
And not calling this T has nothing to do with any potential "permanent" damage to him. If he's that unstable, he shouldn't be playing organized sports.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 12:19pm
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All posters so far make very good points.

NevadaRef reminds us that rules are in place to back us up for any decisions we do make. This is important to have in the book: the ground foundation.

Example: I am in the process of writing a 4-page document that will be the rules for touch football that I play. Some rules will be included so that in case we want to invoke them, they are there. Since it's a rec league, it's often that gentlemen agreements will override the rule, but in case of a disagreement, the rule is the sole text.

Junker provided IMO, the best first step. Many times in my career, the fact that I'm near some bru-haha (sp?) has caused things to diffuse.

mick provided the second step: to verbalize the effect (not affect ) that the actions are having.
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Last edited by JugglingReferee; Mon May 07, 2007 at 03:51pm.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 12:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Nevada didn't specifically say to call this T. He said the rule is there if you think you need to use it. Personally, I agree with getting a bit closer so I can intervene if it escalates.
And not calling this T has nothing to do with any potential "permanent" damage to him. If he's that unstable, he shouldn't be playing organized sports.
Snaqwells knows about unstable. He has worked with me a few times and he's a Hawkeye fan....Pierre Pierce anyone? How 'bout a little Ricky Davis? Oh yeah, I fully expect him to counter with a little Kenny Pratt.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 12:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junker
Snaqwells knows about unstable. He has worked with me a few times and he's a Hawkeye fan....Pierre Pierce anyone? How 'bout a little Ricky Davis? Oh yeah, I fully expect him to counter with a little Kenny Pratt.
You could have also started with Chris Kingsbury, but my first counter would have been Sam Mack. And if you insist on continuing, I'll just respond with three words, "Field Goal Kicker." You may choose any one you like in the last 7 or 8 years.
Oh, and Ricky Davis didn't develop into a head case until he got to the NBA. He didn't have time at Iowa under Davis, he was only there for a year.
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Last edited by Adam; Mon May 07, 2007 at 12:40pm.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 01:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
You could have also started with Chris Kingsbury, but my first counter would have been Sam Mack. And if you insist on continuing, I'll just respond with three words, "Field Goal Kicker." You may choose any one you like in the last 7 or 8 years.
Oh, and Ricky Davis didn't develop into a head case until he got to the NBA. He didn't have time at Iowa under Davis, he was only there for a year.
Darn, I can't believe I forgot Kingsbury since he almost got me kicked out of a game at Hilton (after a beverage or 16 before the ISU Iowa game I might have spent an inordinate amount of time yelling "Hey Piss Boy" at him after an unfortunate public urination charge he earned earlier that season). A Hilton usher came over and asked me to calm down, which I did since we were in the second row behind the basket. If I were in the rafters I probably wouldn't have been as noticable. You have me on the field goal kicker although I'm not sure if they were head cases or just simply not any good.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 03:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junker
I put your quote on this message because a player's emotional state has nothing to do with how you enforce the rules. Rather than worry about poor little Johnny being upset, maybe his problem is that the coach is finally giving him a kick in the pants that he needs and it didn't go over well. We aren't out there to build self-esteem, we are out there to officiate. If a player deserves a T, whack 'em, don't analyze them.
When working with below college level players. You need to be concerned about a players emotional state, especially if it is something that is not related to what's going on on the court. The players are the #1 priority out there. Their well-being, health, safety takes precedence over everything else on the floor, imho. Sometimes, I think coaches temporary forget this.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 03:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junker
A Hilton usher came over and asked me to calm down, which I did since we were in the second row behind the basket. If I were in the rafters I probably wouldn't have been as noticable. You have me on the field goal kicker although I'm not sure if they were head cases or just simply not any good.
You misspelled bouncer.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 03:42pm
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Originally Posted by Old School
When working with below college level players. You need to be concerned about a players emotional state, especially if it is something that is not related to what's going on on the court. The players are the #1 priority out there. Their well-being, health, safety takes precedence over everything else on the floor, imho. Sometimes, I think coaches temporary forget this.
Wrong. It's not my job, I'm not qualified, nor am I getting paid enough to ascertain a player's emotional state.
I'm not advocating calling a T on this play necessarily. I am saying that I never consider the player's feelings, self-esteem, emotions, or spiritual status when I decide whether or not to issue a technical foul.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 05:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Wrong. It's not my job, I'm not qualified, nor am I getting paid enough to ascertain a player's emotional state.
I'm not advocating calling a T on this play necessarily. I am saying that I never consider the player's feelings, self-esteem, emotions, or spiritual status when I decide whether or not to issue a technical foul.
No one is asking you to do a psychological evaluation of the players either. Our game is a highly emotional game, and sometimes emotions gets the best of us. No one is amuned. It's also not a life and death situation either, it's a kid for heavons sake, our future. Seeing a kid with tears in his eyes and getting ready to attack his coach. I don't think that's the time to start throwing technicals. In fact, might not be a bad idea to get involve here, for everybody's sake.
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