Kentucky/Mississippi State Lane Violation

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Really? I don't have my books here, so I can't check. It's been on tests in the past, and the answer is clearly "caught" (or placed on the floor).

I have an NFHS rulebook at my desk and Rule 8:1 ART1 and Caseplay 8:1:1 Sit A specifically says the ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower when it is bounced by the administering official.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I have an NFHS rulebook at my desk and Rule 8:1 ART1 and Caseplay 8:1:1 Sit A specifically says the ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower when it is bounced by the administering official.

It's interesting that the books use that language in 8-1 and 8.1.1 because in 4-4-7, the word "disposal" is defined very specifically. The ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:

a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her
c. Placed on the floor at the spot
d. Available to a player after a goal.

Notice that nowhere does it say the ball is at a player's disposal when it is bounced. It specifically says that it's at the player's disposal when it is caught.

I see the point that you're making about the case play, but I think strictly speaking, the ball is live and is at the free thrower's disposal ONLY when it is caught.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

It's interesting that the books use that language in 8-1 and 8.1.1 because in 4-4-7, the word "disposal" is defined very specifically. The ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:

a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her
c. Placed on the floor at the spot
d. Available to a player after a goal.

Notice that nowhere does it say the ball is at a player's disposal when it is bounced. It specifically says that it's at the player's disposal when it is caught.

I see the point that you're making about the case play, but I think strictly speaking, the ball is live and is at the free thrower's disposal ONLY when it is caught.

4-4-7B can be applied to a throw in as well, because I do administer some of my throw-ins with a bounce, but....

Verbatim Rule 8 Sec 1 Art 1: When a free throw is awarded, the ball shall be placed at the disposal of the free thrower (bounced) by the administering official and the free throw count shall begin. <(Period)

I guess IREF was correct when he said:

Originally Posted by IREFU2
NFHS needs to also clarify the ruling of at the disposal of the free thrower. Once place it says bounced and in another it says bounced and caught.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I have an NFHS rulebook at my desk and Rule 8:1 ART1 and Caseplay 8:1:1 Sit A specifically says the ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower when it is bounced by the administering official.

In this case, 4-4-7 prevails. 8-1 and 8.1.1 are simply stating that the method of getting the ball to the player is by bouncing it to him/her. (8.1.1 specifically references 4-4-7b and says that the ball is live when it is caught by the free thrower.)

My guess is that that 8.1.1 - stating that bouncing is the correct procedure - came into play when the officials' manual was changed so that the L would administer free throws, rather than the C/T. I do agree that it could be a bit clearer semantically.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

In this case, 4-4-7 prevails. 8-1 and 8.1.1 are simply stating that the method of getting the ball to the player is by bouncing it to him/her. (8.1.1 specifically references 4-4-7b and says that the ball is live when it is caught by the free thrower.)

My guess is that that 8.1.1 - stating that bouncing is the correct procedure - came into play when the officials' manual was changed so that the L would administer free throws, rather than the C/T. I do agree that it could be a bit clearer semantically.

I agree with you that it could be a bit clearer. The FED could take notes from the NCAA and be SPECIFIC with their disposal definition..."Caught by the thrower-in or the free thrower after its bounced to him or her." And after reading their rule, I guess that's the intent of the FED as well. Maybe Ms. Struckhoff can correct that in the near future..

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

4-4-7B can be applied to a throw in as well, because I do administer some of my throw-ins with a bounce, but....

Verbatim Rule 8 Sec 1 Art 1: When a free throw is awarded, the ball shall be placed at the disposal of the free thrower (bounced) by the administering official and the free throw count shall begin. <(Period)

I guess IREF was correct when he said:

Originally Posted by IREFU2
NFHS needs to also clarify the ruling of at the disposal of the free thrower. Once place it says bounced and in another it says bounced and caught.

There's no need to clarify anything. Casebook play 8.1.1SitA says that that the ball becomes live when it caught by the free thrower. Rule 6-1-2(c) also says that the ball becomes live when it it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Ergo, "caught" = "disposal".

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

8-1 and 8.1.1 are simply stating that the method of getting the ball to the player is by bouncing it to him/her.

That was exactly my thought, too, Mark.

P.S. -- Did you get my PM?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What has my position concerning unsporting conduct have to do with the violation being discussed?

As I already said, technical fouls are judgment calls. Whether you or I personally agree with an official's judgment as to whether a "T" should have been called isn't relevant to this discussion. Ignoring a violation that has already been committed is a whole 'nother matter. You might be able to argue whether a violation did or did not occur, but when you have video evidence that one actually did, you no longer have that option open imo.

Again, what a coach did or didn't do has got nothing at all to do anyway with whether there a violation committed on the play being discussed.

Once the play had been clearly described (I didn't see that game) I said the violation was the right call.

If an official saw the player outside the space and whistled or the recognized that they were going to make the ball dead before it was made live but didn't have the whistle ready, it still assert that it is not a violation...since the officials recognition of an event is how/when the live/dead ball is determined.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

In this case, 4-4-7 prevails. 8-1 and 8.1.1 are simply stating that the method of getting the ball to the player is by bouncing it to him/her. (8.1.1 specifically references 4-4-7b and says that the ball is live when it is caught by the free thrower.)

My guess is that that 8.1.1 - stating that bouncing is the correct procedure - came into play when the officials' manual was changed so that the L would administer free throws, rather than the C/T. I do agree that it could be a bit clearer semantically.

That is completely correct. The NFHS mechanics changed and rules had to evolve to reflect that. However, most of the language was simply held over. Thus the perceived contradiction.