Kentucky/Mississippi State Lane Violation

[BillyMac]

Jurassic Referee: You're right again. After viewing the video, the officials did make the correct call, 100%, no arguement from me. I was just trying to add a hypothetical situation where some preventative officiating might have prevented this violation. As you pointed out, something that I didn't notice, is that the lead official didn't even have the whistle in his mouth. It's tough to blow the whistle when it's not in your mouth. Hypothetically, too bad the other two officials didn't catch this while the ball was still dead, but I'm not familiar enough with three man mechanics, and primary coverage, to make any pertinent comments. Almost all of our high school games here in Connecticut are two man games.

Also, there are several violations that could have been called in this situation. I believe that the easiest violation to explain, in watching the video, one that leaves little to argue about, is that the player moves into a marked lane space after the ball is at the disposal of the shooter.

[kycat1]

What do you call if a player starts to leave a marked lane space BEFORE the ball is placed at the disposal of the shooter (meaning in the shooters hand)?
What if that player is in transition from one area on the court to another?
Like others said before me, I blow it dead because all the players were not set and legal before the shooter gets the ball. I start over and don't penalize either team for my mistake of not telling the players to hold their positions. If either coach gets upset, I will tell him that it was my mistake and I would give him the same courtesy. Then go back and start the play over.
At 5.1 seconds in a close, critical game I let the players decide the outcome of the game not me!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by kycat1

1) I start over and don't penalize either team for my mistake of not telling the players to hold their positions.

2)At 5.1 seconds in a close, critical game I let the players decide the outcome of the game not me!

1) We're supposed to warn the players to hold their spots? And if we don't, it's a mistake on our part? I didn't know that.

2) Doers that mean that you won't blow your whistle on any fouls or violations in the last 5.1 seconds?

[mj]

Originally Posted by kycat1

At 5.1 seconds in a close, critical game I let the players decide the outcome of the game not me!

On the video it looks like the player did decide the outcome of the game because he violated.

[shave-tail]

Originally Posted by kycat1

At 5.1 seconds in a close, critical game I let the players decide the outcome of the game not me!

If you will not call fouls/violations etc. in a critical or non critical game especially at the end of a game then YOU are deciding the out come of a game and not the players. If they choose or mess up by fouling or violating then just call it, that way the players truely are the people deciding the outcome of the game.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Soooooo......how do you explain that to the opposing coach? You know, the guy that was 15 feet out on the court, going nuts? How exactly are you going to tell him that, yes, the other team committed a violation, but you're going to ignore that violation even though you have NO rules backing to do so? How do you explain that to a league commissioner, assignor or evaluator too?

Well, you could use the same reason that you're going to use for not T'ing the coach for being 15' on the floor.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Billy, if you look at the video, the L didn't put his whistle into his mouth until after the FT shooter had the ball. The other officials obviously didn't blow their whistles before the FT shooter either, or they couldn't have called the violation. Your reasoning is correct, but obviously(at least to me) there was no whistle before the FT shooter got the ball.

I'd go so fars as to say that the official needed to recognize the situation before the shooter had the ball. Perhaps his whistle wasn't in his mouth.

If not, I can agree with the violation.

[Adam]

If one must "remain" someplace, then one is required to have been there to begin with. Failure to "be" in that place necessitates failure to "remain" there. The violation is correct by even the stricted linguistic parsing of this rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Well, you could use the same reason that you're going to use for not T'ing the coach for being 15' on the floor.

An unsporting technical foul is always a judgment call at that level. A violation isn't.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Jim Bob

Kentucky shooting a free throw, leading by three, a few seconds left in the game. Kentucky player leaves the lane almost exactly at the same time the official lets go of the ball to throw it to the shooter. Lane violation called. Mississippi State ties game, then goes on to win in OT.

ESPN commentators argue over whether or not it's the right call, spirit vs. letter of the rule, etc. etc.

What do you guys think?

Thats why it is so important to take your time to administer the FT. I double and tripple check to make sure all players are in place, after about 5 bounces of the ball before I bounce it to the player. NFHS needs to also clarify the ruling of at the disposal of the free thrower. Once place it says bounced and in another it says bounced and caught.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

NFHS needs to also clarify the ruling of at the disposal of the free thrower. Once place it says bounced and in another it says bounced and caught.

Really? I don't have my books here, so I can't check. It's been on tests in the past, and the answer is clearly "caught" (or placed on the floor).

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Really? I don't have my books here, so I can't check. It's been on tests in the past, and the answer is clearly "caught" (or placed on the floor).

Yep, I remember reading it. They need to clarify. I would think at the disposal would be caught and secured by the player.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

An unsporting technical foul is always a judgment call at that level. A violation isn't.

15' on the floor going ballistic at the refs and that's the best you can come up with? In fact, if you hadn't already taken the stance that violation has to be called, you'd be taking the position that you simply have to T the coach....that you just couldn't ignore that obvious of an infraction (even if it is a judgement call).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

NFHS needs to also clarify the ruling of at the disposal of the free thrower. Once place it says bounced and in another it says bounced and caught.

The NFHS did. Case book play 8.1.1SitA says that the ball is live when it is caught by the FT thrower, or after the official has placed it on the floor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

15' on the floor going ballistic at the refs and that's the best you can come up with? In fact, if you hadn't already taken the stance that violation has to be called, you'd be taking the position that you simply have to T the coach....that you just couldn't ignore that obvious of an infraction (even if it is a judgement call).

What has my position concerning unsporting conduct have to do with the violation being discussed?

As I already said, technical fouls are judgment calls. Whether you or I personally agree with an official's judgment as to whether a "T" should have been called isn't relevant to this discussion. Ignoring a violation that has already been committed is a whole 'nother matter. You might be able to argue whether a violation did or did not occur, but when you have video evidence that one actually did, you no longer have that option open imo.

Again, what a coach did or didn't do has got nothing at all to do anyway with whether there a violation committed on the play being discussed.