Kentucky/Mississippi State Lane Violation

[MadCityRef]

Doug Gottlieb of ESPN and the C on the floor had it right. Violation. The other commentator blamed the L and crew for not letting the kid violate, etc. None of the crew told him to leave, Tubby did.
The T and C baled out the L who wanted a do-over by letting UK call the TO. Too often we try to ignore stuff that we shouldn't. This was an obvious get.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What rule states that a player can leave the lane before the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter?

You are approaching this from the wrong direction. You desire a rule which permits the player to leave. There isn't one. However, there is also no rule which prohibits the player from leaving BEFORE the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter. I can turn your question around on you and ask you to cite a rule which PROHIBITS the player from leaving at this time. As you well know, there isn't one.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Again, NCAA rule 9-1-2(g) states that after the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, NO player may be outside a marked lane space and inside the 3-point line.

Nope, what you say the rule states is simply not true. That may well be what it MEANS, but that is not what it SAYS. I quoted it earlier, and it actually SAYS "shall remain behind..."

Now how does one remain somewhere where one hasn't been? cshs81 is making the point that don't we have to let someone get somewhere before we require him to remain there?

[Mark Dexter]

Anyone know if there's video of this online yet? I'd like to see this play for myself before passing judgement on good ol' J.B. "I'm not bitter" Caldwell.

[Camron Rust]

Nevada has it right. The rules reference "remaining". A player in transition should be allowed to get in/out if the ball is not yet at the disposal of the shooter. If the ref bounces the ball when the player is in transition, the ref should kill the ball immediately (preferably before it reaches the shooter) and restart the FT. This is EXACTLY the same reasoning for killing the FT when the shooter bounces the ball off his foot. No rule exists to allow that but that handling is provided through inpertretation.

[Nevadaref]

Be careful, Camron, if you side with me Dan will call you something nasty and possibly post an accompanying picture (maybe even of a squirrel!).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

. A player in transition should be allowed to get in/out if the ball is not yet at the disposal of the shooter. If the ref bounces the ball when the player is in transition, the ref should kill the ball immediately (preferably before it reaches the shooter) and restart the FT.

Lah me.....

The player WASN't in transition when the L bounced the ball. The player left AFTER the L bounced the ball. The L did NOT bounce the ball when a player on the lane was ALREADY in transition. That's why it's a very simple violation under the rules.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You are approaching this from the wrong direction.

Yeah, I know. I'm using an actual, live clear rule instead of a bunch of meaningless gobbleydegook. Silly ol' me.

The player violated NCAA rule 9-1-2(g). That's the only direction that you can come from, by rule. You're basically trying to argue that it's legal for a player to be outside of a lane space and inside the 3-point line when a ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter. Sorry. That's just plain wrong....and stoopid!

[shave-tail]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Anyone know if there's video of this online yet? I'd like to see this play for myself before passing judgement on good ol' J.B. "I'm not bitter" Caldwell.

Ask and ye shall recieve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd-hPD3HXu4

[BillyMac]

shave-tail: Thanks.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by shave-tail

Ask and ye shall recieve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd-hPD3HXu4

Looks like J.B. tried to call the do-over (I definately heard him shouting "my time!"), but he didn't hit the whistle until a split second after the shooter had the ball in hand. I think the crew got it right by going with the violation.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I quoted it earlier, and it actually SAYS "shall remain behind..."

How does one "...remain behind..." a place after something begins if he is not behind that place prior to the start of that thing?

[BillyMac]

After watching the video, I've come up with two possible outcomes:

1) If the lead official noticed the player moving out of a marked lane space after the ball was thrown by the official, but before it was caught by the shooter, I think he should have blown his whistle and gotten everything settled down before proceeding. It's all about preventative officiating.

2) If the above didn't happen, then a violation should have been called for a player moving into marked lane space after the ball was at the disposal of the shooter. Real simple violation to call.

Also, it's real easy for us to watch a video and discuss what should have or could have happened, but we all have to remember that the officials had to make a split second decision, take the ball back from the shooter and reset, or call the free throw violation. It officiating was easy, we wouldn't be getting paid the big bucks to do it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the lead official noticed the player moving out of a marked lane space after the ball was thrown by the official, but before it was caught by the shooter, I think he should have blown his whistle and gotten everything settled down before proceeding. It's all about preventative officiating.

Soooooo......how do you explain that to the opposing coach? You know, the guy that was 15 feet out on the court, going nuts? How exactly are you going to tell him that, yes, the other team committed a violation, but you're going to ignore that violation even though you have NO rules backing to do so? How do you explain that to a league commissioner, assignor or evaluator too?

Here's where your logic goes astray. As soon as the ball was caught by the FT thrower, a violation occurred. As an official, you can try to prevent a violation from occurring. You can't prevent a violation that has already occurred however. That's impossible.

[BillyMac]

Jurassic Referee: You're right. If none of the officials was able to blow their whistles during the dead ball period between the time that the ball was released by the lead official and the ball being caught, at the disposal, of the shooter, then it would be, and should be a violation. If the a whistle was blown during the dead ball period between the time that the the ball was released by the lead official and the ball being caught, at the disposal, of the shooter, then I believe that the ball, by NFHS Rule 7-7-5 (I realize that this is an NCAA game), is dead, and no violation could occur, and there is no violation to ignore, which is what I would have explained to the irate coach.

Also, in part two of my answer, I was trying to come up with a simply answer as to why a violation would be and should be called. To make it as simple as possible, I don't believe that the officials, or the members of this Forum, should have considered whether the player moved out of the marked lane space for a violation, or whether the player was inside the three point arc, below the free throw line extended, for a violation. At its simpliest, from the video, the player moves into a marked lane space after the ball is at the disposal of the shooter (NFHS Rule 9-1-6).

I am only familiar with NFHS rules and IAABO mechanics. I can't pretend to know enough about NCAA rules and mechanics to make any further comments. One thing that I do know, is, that even in my toughest high school games, I'm sure I'm not anywhere near under the pressure that these NCAA Division I officials are under. I probably should have kept my comments to myself. I'm nowhere near being in the same "league" as the officials in this situation, or the NCAA Division I officals on this Forum. Also, its a lot easier to make the call watching the video than it was for the officials to make the call in real time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1)If none of the officials was able to blow their whistles during the dead ball period between the time that the ball was released by the lead official and the ball being caught, at the disposal, of the shooter, then it would be, and should be a violation. If the a whistle was blown during the dead ball period between the time that the the ball was released by the lead official and the ball being caught, at the disposal, of the shooter, then I believe that the ball, by NFHS Rule 7-7-5 (I realize that this is an NCAA game), is dead, and no violation could occur, and there is no violation to ignore, which is what I would have explained to the irate coach.

2) At its simplest, from the video, the player moves into a marked lane space after the ball is at the disposal of the shooter

1) Billy, if you look at the video, the L didn't put his whistle into his mouth until after the FT shooter had the ball. The other officials obviously didn't blow their whistles before the FT shooter either, or they couldn't have called the violation. Your reasoning is correct, but obviously(at least to me) there was no whistle before the FT shooter got the ball.

2) Naw, at it's simplest, as soon as the FT shooter gets the ball, his opponent violates immediately by being outside of a lane space but inside the arc. The NFHS equivalent to the NCAA rule is 9-1-8. What the player does after committing that violation-- be it returning to a lane space-- is moot because the play is now over. Make sense?