The crew did nothing...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think your passion is admirable on the surface, but please do not tell me why I should do something because you think it is wrong.

I'm not telling you to do a damn thing.

Again, if you and Old School and the others feel that it's OK for a high school aged player to swear directly AT you, call YOU names, etc., and basically just give 'em a slap on the wrist, then good for all of you. Enjoy yourselves. Hey, when a game gets out of sight, all the players on the losing team can take turns swearing at you. What's a "T" at that time? It's not like any of 'em would ever have to worry about...gasp....maybe being thrown out of a game or sumthin'.

Personally, I won't put up with that crap from high school players or coaches. Never have, never will. That's just me though. Do what you gotta do.

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Do what you gotta do.

I think you hit the nail on the head here, JR. Everyone has their way of handling things, and in this situation, mine would be a flagrant T. As people have pointed out, this can be due to reasons such as where you're from, your game management ability, and how you feel about profanity in general. Though JRut's opinion on this differs from mine, if he feels that the way he handles it works best for him, then I'm not going to take that away from him.

First of all, that post was written last night as a vent. Had they given just a regular T, I probably would not have made the post at all, and I think we can all agree that the statement, at least, was deserving of a T. I would have gone flagrant, JRut wouldn't. Had JRut been at the game last night, and called the T (as I believe he already said he would have) then this post would have never made it here.

[TRef21]

Automatic T. Thats to keep the game of basketball respected.

[blindzebra]

I think it's convenient that many choose to use the, I don't have this problem in my game cop-out.

Of course they don't, because they ignore it, and leave the rest of us to clean up their mess later on...what you allow, you condone.

There is no room for that type of behavior in a HS game or lower, nor is there room for officials that allow it...have the sack to do what is right for the game and your fellow officials or don't officiate.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

In my opinion, I would have not given flagrant, just an unsportsmanlike T. He should have been stuck. I would have done it immediately.

Who asked for your "opinion?" It's in the case book.

5.6.2 SITUATION F:
Following the final horn in a game which has Team A leading 62-60, the coach of Team A sprints after the game officials and shouts profanity at the referee who has just left the playing court outside the end line.

RULING: The referee shall charge the coach with a flagrant technical foul and the results of the two free throws will determine whether an extra period will be necessary. The jurisdiction of the officials had not ended as the referee was still within the visual confines of the playing area. (2-2-4)

I guess the NFHS must be wrong.

[REFVA]

I guess the NFHS must be wrong. Bktballref

Go get em BKTBALREF. Why write the rule if we as officials don't follow them. Maybe moving forward they don't need referees and do pickup ball.

Why do we go to camps, attend training, take test to test us on the knowledge of the rules. If we leave it to the interpretation of each individual official then why have rules? Let's make them up as we go along... This is why we as officials get scrutnized. We are not consistant. This should be across the board. Not just leave it to the local association either. IMO

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I think it's convenient that many choose to use the, I don't have this problem in my game cop-out.

Of course they don't, because they ignore it, and leave the rest of us to clean up their mess later on...what you allow, you condone.

You must have a flagrant T every single game? Or are you advocating a flagrant T every single game is a must? Considering this happens all the time and it is just being ignored all officials have to step up and throw players out for this behavior.

Some officials have a reputation for many things. Maybe the officials that constantly have to deal with this do not know how to deal with people the proper way and only are penalizing behavior. Maybe there are another set of officials that know how to deal with people and they are not getting to the point where they are being cursed out. You think guys like Ed Hightower, Teddy Valentine, Teddy Higgins or Jim Burr do not have a reputation? I will not put myself on the same plane as any of those officials, but I do feel I have a reputation for not tolerating certain behavior and I work with a lot of officials that have similar reputations and no one dares to go there. Also if a team does not know me, they learn rather quickly that I do not put up with BS. All it takes is a little word with a coach and most conflict with players stops, because the coach takes care of it.

Peace

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Old School

They are not out of control in my games either!!

Mine either.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Who asked for your "opinion?" It's in the case book.

5.6.2 SITUATION F:
Following the final horn in a game which has Team A leading 62-60, the coach of Team A sprints after the game officials and shouts profanity at the referee who has just left the playing court outside the end line.

RULING: The referee shall charge the coach with a flagrant technical foul and the results of the two free throws will determine whether an extra period will be necessary. The jurisdiction of the officials had not ended as the referee was still within the visual confines of the playing area. (2-2-4)

I guess the NFHS must be wrong.

Its a free world, last time I checked, I had an opinion.

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Who asked for your "opinion?" It's in the case book.

5.6.2 SITUATION F:
Following the final horn in a game which has Team A leading 62-60, the coach of Team A sprints after the game officials and shouts profanity at the referee who has just left the playing court outside the end line.

RULING: The referee shall charge the coach with a flagrant technical foul and the results of the two free throws will determine whether an extra period will be necessary. The jurisdiction of the officials had not ended as the referee was still within the visual confines of the playing area. (2-2-4)

I guess the NFHS must be wrong.

BktBallRef, with all due respect you can't cite the casebook 5.6.2 Situation F as "requiring" a flagrant technical foul if a kid "shouts profanity at the referee." Just like casebook 5.6.2 Situation F does not "require" that an official assess a flagrant technical foul against anyone who "sprints after the game officials." What if a coach "sprints after the game officials" after the game and says "Hey, just wanted to let you guys know you did a hell-of-a job tonight"? "Thanks, Coach, now hit the showers and you can't coach next game either"?! Of course not. The casebook situation that you cited requires an official to assess all of the factors in play and make a judgment within both the letter and spirit of the rules.

I'm not suggesting that your opinion/judgment that a flagrant technical foul should be assessed against a player who shouts profanity at an official is necessarily wrong, just pointing out that this is a result of opinion/judgment, not a NFHS edict.

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by bgtg19

this is a result of opinion/judgment, not a NFHS edict.

"The official shall" sure reads more like an edict than an opinion to this student.

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

but I do feel I have a reputation for not tolerating certain behavior and I work with a lot of officials that have similar reputations and no one dares to go there. Also if a team does not know me, they learn rather quickly that I do not put up with BS. All it takes is a little word with a coach and most conflict with players stops, because the coach takes care of it.

I think I understand what you're saying, JRut, but you got to this point in your career by being tough when it comes to situations like the OP, did you not?

I think perhaps you are looking at it from the perspective of a seasoned, well-known official, which is understandable. But many on this forum haven't been around our leagues/teams/coaches/players as long as you have, we don't have that "reputation" and so your advice really doesn't make any sense. How are you supposed to get to the point where players respect you if you don't lay down the law in these kinds of scenarios? How else are you supposed to build this "reputation" you speak of without being strict in cases like the OP?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Its a free world, last time I checked, I had an opinion.

I want to know, what is profanity? Profanity means different things to different people. Is the word "Damn" a profanity that needs an ejection? Is the term "Jesus Christ" deserve an ejection? Is when someone says, "Pissed" require an ejection?

I am not saying this to start a major debate. I am saying this because it is very clear that we will all never agree with profanity is. I might have a player call me a name that is not at all considered profanity, but might result in an ejection because it has other meaning that are more direct or personal. This is why I do not have a "one size fits all" solution. I guarantee if I change some words the people that have a zero tolerance which results in ejection might change their tune just a little. I think this is also why the NF does not say what is or is not profanity.

Peace

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

"The official shall" sure reads more like an edict than an opinion to this student.

DC_Ref12, would you call the flagrant technical foul against the coach who sprinted up to you after the game to say you did one hell-of-a-job or you did a damn good job? That has the "sprinting" element and the "profanity" element. Is that an NFHS edict? The reason why officiating basketball is difficult is because judgment is so often (as in, constantly) exercised. I'm just pointing out that that is true when someone is swearing, too.

I agree that the official "shall" call the flagrant technical foul IS an edict in situations "as described in the case play." It is not an edict for all other situations involving some elements of the case play.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I want to know, what is profanity? Profanity means different things to different people. Is the word "Damn" a profanity that needs an ejection? Is the term "Jesus Christ" deserve an ejection? Is when someone says, "Pissed" require an ejection?

I am not saying this to start a major debate. I am saying this because it is very clear that we will all never agree with profanity is. I might have a player call me a name that is not at all considered profanity, but might result in an ejection because it has other meaning that are more direct or personal. This is why I do not have a "one size fits all" solution. I guarantee if I change some words the people that have a zero tolerance which results in ejection might change their tune just a little. I think this is also why the NF does not say what is or is not profanity.

Peace

Any curse word will get you a "T" from me. Da*mn, A*s, F*ck, Sh*t, all of the list ones that you are not suppose to use in the company of adults and/or children. Think of the curse words you used when you were growing up as a kid and would get a whipping for. This goes for coaches as well.