The crew did nothing...

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You must have a flagrant T every single game? Or are you advocating a flagrant T every single game is a must? Considering this happens all the time and it is just being ignored all officials have to step up and throw players out for this behavior.

Some officials have a reputation for many things. Maybe the officials that constantly have to deal with this do not know how to deal with people the proper way and only are penalizing behavior. Maybe there are another set of officials that know how to deal with people and they are not getting to the point where they are being cursed out. You think guys like Ed Hightower, Teddy Valentine, Teddy Higgins or Jim Burr do not have a reputation? I will not put myself on the same plane as any of those officials, but I do feel I have a reputation for not tolerating certain behavior and I work with a lot of officials that have similar reputations and no one dares to go there. Also if a team does not know me, they learn rather quickly that I do not put up with BS. All it takes is a little word with a coach and most conflict with players stops, because the coach takes care of it.

Peace

So did you just admit that the type of behavior in the OP happens in every game you do?

Because that is how I'm reading it.

I don't care what rep Hightower, Valentine, Higgins and Burr have...but I guarantee you a player that screams you are Fing horrible at Teddy is getting whacked, and if it's in a HS game, that player is getting tossed...because it is irrelevant to the topic. I suspect it was just a means to talk about your rep, but that too isn't on topic.

What is on topic is:

1. The player in the OP did commit a flagrant act.

2. An official that ignores it completely is a disgrace to officiating.

3. An official that just T's the player and doesn't eject them, only makes that behavior worse in the long run, thus making all of our jobs that much harder.

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by bgtg19

DC_Ref12, would you call the flagrant technical foul against the coach who sprinted up to you after the game to say you did one hell-of-a-job or you did a damn good job? That has the "sprinting" element and the "profanity" element. Is that an NFHS edict? The reason why officiating basketball is difficult is because judgment is so often (as in, constantly) exercised. I'm just pointing out that that is true when someone is swearing, too.

I agree that the official "shall" call the flagrant technical foul IS an edict in situations "as described in the case play." It is not an edict for all other situations involving some elements of the case play.

LOL. You must be a lawyer.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

I think I understand what you're saying, JRut, but you got to this point in your career by being tough when it comes to situations like the OP, did you not?

I think perhaps you are looking at it from the perspective of a seasoned, well-known official, which is understandable. But many on this forum haven't been around our leagues/teams/coaches/players as long as you have, we don't have that "reputation" and so your advice really doesn't make any sense. How are you supposed to get to the point where players respect you if you don't lay down the law in these kinds of scenarios? How else are you supposed to build this "reputation" you speak of without being strict in cases like the OP?

Reputation has a lot to do with officiating and even helps officials know what type of team you are dealing with as well. I am not telling you something that is in a vacuum. Someone even said that officials with a little bit of grey hair are rarely questioned. It also helps if you are fit, in position and approachable. We all know officials that do not have the best reputations and everything they call is questioned.

Peace

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

LOL. You must be a lawyer.

If I was a good lawyer, I'd have an answer to my question by now...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

So did you just admit that the type of behavior in the OP happens in every game you do?

Because that is how I'm reading it.

You would be wrong, but that is not the first time.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I don't care what rep Hightower, Valentine, Higgins and Burr have...but I guarantee you a player that screams you are Fing horrible at Teddy is getting whacked, and if it's in a HS game, that player is getting tossed...because it is irrelevant to the topic. I suspect it was just a means to talk about your rep, but that too isn't on topic.

I have seen Teddy V give Ts left and right. I have never seen him eject someone without two Ts. I am sure there was some profanity in those situations. I will bet money on that one. Actually I cannot think of anyone outside of Rick Barnes that he got rid of. And what did you people do here, say he should have done it.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

What is on topic is:

1. The player in the OP did commit a flagrant act.

2. An official that ignores it completely is a disgrace to officiating.

3. An official that just T's the player and doesn't eject them, only makes that behavior worse in the long run, thus making all of our jobs that much harder.

1. That is an opinion and judgment, not something that we all agree on. I guess if we disagree with you

2. I think it is a disgrace to tell other people what they "should" do because it is not your opinion.

3. Maybe for you because you do not have the ability to deal with the situation. Once again, I cannot think the last time or ever that a player cursed at me. They have said other things, but cursing? No.

Peace

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Reputation has a lot to do with officiating and even helps officials know what type of team you are dealing with as well. I am not telling you something that is in a vacuum. Someone even said that officials with a little bit of grey hair are rarely questioned. It also helps if you are fit, in position and approachable. We all know officials that do not have the best reputations and everything they call is questioned.

Peace

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost seems like you are saying in a roundabout way that the OP brought this situation on himself by somehow not having a reputation and/or appearance that earned him respect. Am I wrong?

Sorry, I'm just not grasping what exactly this all has to do with the situation cited in the OP. I understand and appreciate the concept of reputation, but sometimes it's quite possible that you're just gonna have a player that goes nuclear. Then what do you do?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bgtg19

BktBallRef, with all due respect you can't cite the casebook 5.6.2 Situation F as "requiring" a flagrant technical foul if a kid "shouts profanity at the referee." Just like casebook 5.6.2 Situation F does not "require" that an official assess a flagrant technical foul against anyone who "sprints after the game officials." What if a coach "sprints after the game officials" after the game and says "Hey, just wanted to let you guys know you did a hell-of-a job tonight"? "Thanks, Coach, now hit the showers and you can't coach next game either"?! Of course not. The casebook situation that you cited requires an official to assess all of the factors in play and make a judgment within both the letter and spirit of the rules.

I'm not suggesting that your opinion/judgment that a flagrant technical foul should be assessed against a player who shouts profanity at an official is necessarily wrong, just pointing out that this is a result of opinion/judgment, not a NFHS edict.

The case play clearly states that the coach shouts profanity at the officials and that the penalty is a flagrant T foul.

It's moronic to read that play and think the T should be called because the coach sprinted after the officials.

I think the NFHS is very clear on those point. It's officials who refuse to penalize properly that add to the deterioration of the game and make it more difficult for those who call the game correctly. Officials such as yourself who refuse to penalize this properly are a huge part of the problem.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have seen Teddy V give Ts left and right. I have never seen him eject someone without two Ts. I am sure there was some profanity in those situations. I will bet money on that one. Actually I cannot think of anyone outside of Rick Barnes that he got rid of.

D1 basketball is a completely different world than high school ball. I can't imagine Teddy V letting any high school player swear at him and call him names without unloading him.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost seems like you are saying in a roundabout way that the OP brought this situation on himself by somehow not having a reputation and/or appearance that earned him respect. Am I wrong?

Where do you people come up with this stuff? Seriously for a second. Are you telling me that people do not judge us based on our appearance, experience, where we live, age, and demeanor. If you really want me to qualify this, then you have a lot to learn about officiating in general.

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

Sorry, I'm just not grasping what exactly this all has to do with the situation cited in the OP. I understand and appreciate the concept of reputation, but sometimes it's quite possible that you're just gonna have a player that goes nuclear. Then what do you do?

I agree, you will not grasp it.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

D1 basketball is a completely different world than high school ball. I can't imagine Teddy V letting any high school player swear at him and call him names without unloading him.

Maybe it is where you live.

Peace

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Where do you people come up with this stuff? Seriously for a second. Are you telling me that people do not judge us based on our appearance, experience, where we live, age, and demeanor. If you really want me to qualify this, then you have a lot to learn about officiating in general.



I agree, you will not grasp it.

Peace

Sorry to bother you.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

Sorry to bother you.

You are not bothering me. I just think you have a lot to learn about officiating if you seriously think I said anything about the official's bringing this on themselves. If I felt that way I would say that. I will never believe that an player out of the blue went from 0-10 without other incidents not being addressed. We talk so much about what we allow, it is likely that other incidents, comments were said long before this player decided to blurt out this. It is not about bring anything on your self. But when two players and constantly jawing and we have a fight, it was not the fight that needed to be handled, it was the things that took place before the fight ever happen.

Peace

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are not bothering me. I just think you have a lot to learn about officiating if you seriously think I said anything about the official's bringing this on themselves. If I felt that way I would say that. I will never believe that an player out of the blue went from 0-10 without other incidents not being addressed. We talk so much about what we allow, it is likely that other incidents, comments were said long before this player decided to blurt out this. It is not about bring anything on your self. But when two players and constantly jawing and we have a fight, it was not the fight that needed to be handled, it was the things that took place before the fight ever happen.

Peace

I do have a lot to learn about officiating. That's why I'm here.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Maybe it is where you live.

And maybe if I heard it from Teddy V instead of you, I might believe it too.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

I do have a lot to learn about officiating. That's why I'm here.

1. Find a mentor.
   
2. Attend many camps.
   
3. Watch many games in person.

Those three things will help you a lot more than this place. I have never learned anything major about officiating from here other than what not to listen to.

Peace