The crew did nothing...

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

1. Find a mentor.
   
2. Attend many camps.
   
3. Watch many games in person.

Those three things will help you a lot more than this place. I have never learned anything major about officiating from here other than what not to listen to.

Peace

With all due respect, I am doing all three of your suggestions, and I still find this forum to be a very valuable resource. No, it is not the end-all be-all of officiating knowledge, but I have found value in it.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Again, if you and Old School and the others feel that it's OK for a high school aged player to swear directly AT you, call YOU names, etc., and basically just give 'em a slap on the wrist, then good for all of you.

You are so over the top. You really need to get out more. Nobody ever said it was okay. It's how I choose to deal with it that's an issue.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I think it's convenient that many choose to use the, I don't have this problem in my game cop-out.

This is getting ridiculous. If it doesn't happen in my game, then it just doesn't happen. Now, at the end of the game if somebody on the losing team wants to spout off, and they have been perfect up to that point. It's my judgement if I choose to enforce the rule of law or not and it's got nothing to do with any other official or upholding the profession. Let's say, and I'm sure there are some DI officials who have probably been here. Let's say I'm in Illinois and I got a big game in Florida the next day. This game in Illinois is over, I need to get to the airport and figure out if I'm going to be able to get out because of the weather. You F...king referees suck. Okay, I'll make a note of you and remember that comment the next time I see you. The same with the coach, AC.

Do I believe that this player is going to be a problem for the next crew? Possibly! Depends on how the game goes. He will be a problem no matter if I call the technical today or not. No matter if I toss him or not. Guaranteed, if his team is losing the next game, and he thinks you made a bad call. Here he comes. Case in point, Rasheed Wallace.

JR made a referee to what I believe is a superstar HS player. This is a valid point. Depending on who you are, you may get a pass. I heard Michael Jordan got a lot of passes, so did Larry Bird, Dwayne Wade, Shaquille O'Neil, Lebron James. It's our society. You going to be surprise at the next statement I'm going to make. You get a pass too on this forum JR. You get to say a lot of crap that's way out of line out here about others and nobody checks you. You get to say way more than anybody else, go on and on and on. If I say something in retaliation, my comments gets deleted. My point is, some people do get special treatment. That's just the way it is in this society, and it is across the board.

Get over it!

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

It's moronic to read that play and think the T should be called because the coach sprinted after the officials.

Here's why I don't think it is "moronic" to include the sprinting to officials as part of the ruling. That act -- sprinting at someone -- is a purposeful act. It communicates to anyone who sees it that there is something urgent and compelling going on; and, from the perspective of the officials, when someone sprints at them, they would have no way of knowing what is about to happen (and not much time to react, in any event). You follow up that purposeful action with a second purposeful action -- yelling profanity at the official -- and you now clearly have an individual who is out of control. Those two purposeful acts (both judged as unsporting), taken together, clearly deserve a flagrant technical foul. My point is that it would be inappropriate to apply that case play as REQUIRING a flagrant technical foul when only some of the elements are present.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

It's officials who refuse to penalize properly that add to the deterioration of the game and make it more difficult for those who call the game correctly. Officials such as yourself who refuse to penalize this properly are a huge part of the problem.

I forgive you -- not that you asked for forgiveness -- for (a) jumping to a conclusion about how I call the game, as opposed to officials who call it "correctly," and (b) turning this into a personal attack. I find it ironic that in a thread in which we are discussing how absolutely unacceptable it is for players (and coaches) to personally attack/question officials, to find that officials are doing it to each other....

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bgtg19

Here's why I don't think it is "moronic" to include the sprinting to officials as part of the ruling. That act -- sprinting at someone -- is a purposeful act.

Please site the rule that states sprinting is a technical foul.

The technical foul is for yelling profanity at the officials. Do you honestly not see that?

I forgive you -- not that you asked for forgiveness -- for (a) jumping to a conclusion about how I call the game, as opposed to officials who call it "correctly," and (b) turning this into a personal attack. I find it ironic that in a thread in which we are discussing how absolutely unacceptable it is for players (and coaches) to personally attack/question officials, to find that officials are doing it to each other....

What conclusion am I suppose to "jump to" when you defend not ejecting these participants?

BTW, if you think that was a perosnal attack, you must have a tough time on the floor.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

With all due respect, I am doing all three of your suggestions, and I still find this forum to be a very valuable resource. No, it is not the end-all be-all of officiating knowledge, but I have found value in it.

I am glad.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You would be wrong, but that is not the first time.



I have seen Teddy V give Ts left and right. I have never seen him eject someone without two Ts. I am sure there was some profanity in those situations. I will bet money on that one. Actually I cannot think of anyone outside of Rick Barnes that he got rid of. And what did you people do here, say he should have done it.



1. That is an opinion and judgment, not something that we all agree on. I guess if we disagree with you

2. I think it is a disgrace to tell other people what they "should" do because it is not your opinion.

3. Maybe for you because you do not have the ability to deal with the situation. Once again, I cannot think the last time or ever that a player cursed at me. They have said other things, but cursing? No.

Peace

Typical Rut BS.

Dealing with the situation in this case is blowing your whistle and unloading the little punk...something you appear to not have the sack to do.

We are discussing a specific event, not one that can't happen because the big, bad aura of J Rutledge is on the floor...get over yourself already, your arrogance was old a long time ago.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Typical Rut BS.

Dealing with the situation in this case is blowing your whistle and unloading the little punk...something you appear to not have the sack to do.

We are discussing a specific event, not one that can't happen because the big, bad aura of J Rutledge is on the floor...get over yourself already, your arrogance was old a long time ago.

All I can say is it does not happen in the games I work and it does not happen with the games I watch. If that is BS, then it is BS. It is the truth and I think the officials that I watch and work with often are very good at handling situations. We all can call the game it is how you handle situations that separate the wheat from the chaff. Also never said it could not happen, I said it does not happen. I threw out my first coach in over 10 seasons this past January. I was working with a freshman coach and he likely did not have a veteran official like me very often and he never used a single curse word toward me. I also pass a lot of schools to get too many of my games, so I am not sure who I would be afraid of. I will also bet I have put myself in a lot tougher situations than you would ever do on your own. So I take that "fear" comment coming from you as funny.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

All I can say is it does not happen in the games I work and it does not happen with the games I watch. If that is BS, then it is BS. It is the truth and I think the officials that I watch and work with often are very good at handling situations. We all can call the game it is how you handle situations that separate the wheat from the chaff. Also never said it could not happen, I said it does not happen. I threw out my first coach in over 10 seasons this past January. I was working with a freshman coach and he likely did not have a veteran official like me very often and he never used a single curse word toward me. I also pass a lot of schools to get too many of my games, so I am not sure who I would be afraid of. I will also bet I have put myself in a lot tougher situations than you would ever do on your own. So I take that "fear" comment coming from you as funny.

Peace

Why do I read this and hear, "You want me on that wall, you need me on that wall!"

So you driving to games in downtown Bagdad or something?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Why do I read this and hear, "You want me on that wall, you need me on that wall!"

So you driving to games in downtown Bagdad or something?

You are not going to work games before me and you will not work games after me. So what you think really is not my concern. Not sure why you give a damn what I do.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

This was the dumbest thread ever.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh. It's already been cited above by BktBallRef. Case book play 5.6.2SitF. You don't mind high school kids swearing at YOU either, I take it?

Hey, be my guest. Let 'em call you every name in the book, for all I care. Hell, they know that they're not gonna get thrown out anyway. Remember, though, to be fair you have to let every single player on both teams swear at YOU like that without fear of being tossed. Not to mention coaches, trainers, student managers, etc., etc., etc.

You reap what you sow, and officials that don't want to to take care of bidness deserve exactly what they get.

I'm not going flagrant with this either, at least as far as the example. I think it would be flagrant if the player did so in a confrontational manner, but taking the "easy approach" and just yelling while his back is turned or walking away just gets him a regular old, two-pinky T. JMO

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Please site the rule that states sprinting is a technical foul.

Good one. Very clever. Now I have to acknowledge that there is NOT a specific rule provision that states that sprinting is a technical foul. (Although I could cite a case play, as you did.)

If a player sprinted onto the court in the middle of play, you'd call a technical foul. If a player or coach sprinted at you in an unsporting manner, you'd call a technical foul. If a player or coach sprinted at you in a manner that suggested disagreement with your (or your partner's) call, you'd call a technical foul. The point, of course, is not that "sprinting" alone brings the T, but that sprinting can be a factor that an official uses in forming a judgment about whether or not to call a technical foul. There is no rule that requires a technical foul to be administered for "speaking," but speaking can be a factor that an official uses to determine whether a technical foul is appropriate.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The technical foul is for yelling profanity at the officials. Do you honestly not see that?

I absolutely agree that in the case play you cited, yelling profanity at the officials was the predominant factor in the NFHS's ruling that a flagrant technical foul should be called. Do you honestly not see the presence of other factors, too? Do you not see the possibility that the other factors might have been used to convert a technical foul into a flagrant technical foul?

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

What conclusion am I suppose to "jump to" when you defend not ejecting these participants?

I did not defend not ejecting "these participants." I actually have expressed no opinion on whether or not swearing at an official is, or ought to be, a flagrant technical foul. What did I do? I pointed out that the case play you cited is NOT an edict for every case of profanity being ruled as a flagrant technical foul.

An official uses her or his judgment in these situations. The case play you cited contributes to an official's ability to exercise proper judgment (so, thank you for that). I just think it's important that other officials know that their judgment is required, not an automatic application of a bright line rule.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

BTW, if you think that was a perosnal [sic] attack, you must have a tough time on the floor.

Ah, another good one. Very clever. The fact that I can identify a personal attack must mean that I am crippled by them. That'll get me.

BktBallRef, I intend to move on to other things now, and you are welcome to have the last word. I have always considered your contributions on this forum to be valuable. I merely pointed out an error you made -- implying that your case play requires a flagrant technical foul to be called in the situation described in the OP. I think enough has been said to let readers judge whether it is my mistake or yours.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bgtg19

I merely pointed out an error you made -- implying that your case play requires a flagrant technical foul to be called in the situation described in the OP. I think enough has been said to let readers judge whether it is my mistake or yours.

I'm going to ask this again. How is the OP different than the case play?
Is it okay for a player to do it but not a coach? Is it okay to do it during a game but not after?
If you're going to issue a flagrant after the game is over to a coach for doing the same thing, how can you justify not issuing a flagrant in the OP. The case play absolutely applies, because all the differences between the two make it even more likely I'd call a flagrant on the OP.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

This was the dumbest thread ever.

Oh no it's not...there have been some dandies over the past few years...this one doesn't even come close to the dumbest one ever!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

I think it would be flagrant if the player did so in a confrontational manner, but taking the "easy approach" and just yelling while his back is turned or walking away just gets him a regular old, two-pinky T. JMO

Cool. A high school player calling you a "f**king idiot" isn't confrontational. Good to know that. And how someone tells you that you're a "f**king idiot" should be taken into account also. If they say it nicely or quietly, then the penalty should be different also.

All I'm gonna say is......disagree.