Playoff Tech.

[tmp44]

Girls District Playoff quarterfinal last night. Team A (#10 seed) is beating Team B (#2 seed) all night. 3 minutes left in the 3rd, Team A up 12. Team B is beginning to get frustrated because they're losing to a team that they shouldn't be losing to. I'm T and we have a tie-up in the corner, my side. I run in as I'm calling the jump ball. B1 ends up with the ball and, as I'm running in, A1 gives B1 what I can only describe as an "elbow shove" to the back. B1 turns around with a pissed off look in her face and the ball in her hands, but she was smart and didn't throw the ball at A1 although she looked like she might. I whacked A1. When the coach asked what the T was for, I told him that it was dead ball contact that, 1) had it been live ball, would have been a common foul or very possibly even an intentional, and 2) was unsportsmanlike towards B1.

Thoughts? One of the officials in my association who was at the game last night mentioned that, because it was a playoff game, maybe I should have held off on the T...anyone agree w/ that philosophy?

[fonzzy07]

No who cares that it is a playoff game. She committed an act that deserved a T give her a T. A T is JUST BUISSNESS. Who cares that it is a playoff I just don't see what that has to do with it. Why should the person get special treatment.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by tmp44

I'm T and we have a tie-up in the corner, my side. I run in as I'm calling the jump ball. B ends up with the ball and, as I'm running in, A1 gives B1 what I can only describe as an "elbow shove" to the back. B1 turns around with a pissed off look in her face and the ball in her hands, but she was smart and didn't throw the ball at A1 although she looked like she might. When the coach asked what the T was for, I told him that it was dead ball contact that, 1) had it been live ball, would have been a common foul

Thoughts? One of the officials in my association who was at the game last night mentioned that, because it was a playoff game, maybe I should have held off on the T...anyone agree w/ that philosophy?

Contact after the whistle has been blown should be ignored unless it is intentional or flagrant. From your description, it sounds like just a common foul, not intentional in nature. Remember you said if the ball was live it would be a common foul. Ignore it! You had a very competitive playoff game. Referee the game like you have been there before, not like you are new. How a player can get two elbows into the back of another player sounds to me like she was hustling and just got caught in an awkward position, related to trying to get the ball. This is apart of the game and you must learn and understand the difference. I understand what the other official was telling you. Don't go looking for problems. Problems of this nature will come to you. Calling intentional fouls that are not obvious to everyone in the gym in a girls game is over officiating. Let the players decide the game. When we're not notice is when we do our best. Girls play ball and they play very smart. Rarely do you see "intentional acts" in girls ball.

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by Old School

Contact after the whistle has been blown should be ignored unless it is intentional or flagrant. From your description, it sounds like just a common foul, not intentional in nature. Remember you said if the ball was live it would be a common foul. Ignore it! You had a very competitive playoff game. Referee the game like you have been there before, not like you are new. How a player can get two elbows into the back of another player sounds to me like she was hustling and just got caught in an awkward position, related to trying to get the ball. This is apart of the game and you must learn and understand the difference. I understand what the other official was telling you. Don't go looking for problems. Problems of this nature will come to you. Calling intentional fouls that are not obvious to everyone in the gym in a girls game is over officiating. Let the players decide the game. When we're not notice is when we do our best. Girls play ball and they play very smart. Rarely do you see "intentional acts" in girls ball.

While I respect everyone's opinion on this board, if you are going to misquote me and then criticize me for it, keep your opinion to your self. If you would have read the OP, I told the coach it was definitely a common foul, and very possible an intentional foul. And it was not two pushes, it was one push, after the whistle, that had nothing to do with her being in an awkward position and everything about her pushing the other player.

Oh, and by the way, if you're going to actually quote me, why don't you quote the entire thing? Or are you afraid that people will disagree with you if you do?

[K-Bach]

Originally Posted by Old School

Contact after the whistle has been blown should be ignored unless it is intentional or flagrant.

Does this mean you only call intentional or flagrant technical fouls? This must be some new form of game management -- call no dead ball contact until the game is beyond control.

I'll think I'll try it!

[MJT]

tmp44, I think when you see the situation occur you know if it warrants a T or not and that judgement is usually correct. I have only had one T on a player in the past 4 years and it was a flailing elbow/armswing just after I called a foul against a player who just contacted the player I T'd up. Like I said, when I saw it, I knew it was a T. It would have been if it was in a 7th grade game or a state championship game.

[Adam]

I had two dead ball contact T's this season in my games. My partner called one in a varsity girls game after a held ball when one of the participants threw an elbow before getting off the floor.
My other one was a 7th grade girls game, girl got fouled pretty hard. We had the whistle immediately, but I as soon as I'd closed in about two steps the fouled girl retaliated with a solid shove. Easy T. Her coach didn't seem to agree, but managed to keep it to himself mostly.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by K-Bach

This must be some new form of game management -- call no dead ball contact until the game is beyond control.

I'll think I'll try it!

You should try it, because it's the rule. See 4-19-1 Note.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by K-Bach

Does this mean you only call intentional or flagrant technical fouls? This must be some new form of game management -- call no dead ball contact until the game is beyond control.

I'll think I'll try it!

If the contact is intentional or flagrant during a dead ball, it's a technical foul. Please tell me what other types fo dead ball contact there are and how you'd punish them.

And then see Bob's reference again.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by K-Bach

Does this mean you only call intentional or flagrant technical fouls? This must be some new form of game management -- call no dead ball contact until the game is beyond control.

I'll think I'll try it!

If the ball is dead, you can't call a personal foul. It has to be a technical foul if anything. The rule (see Bob's post above for the reference) says it must be intentional or flagrant to call it.
Now, a purposeful shove or elbow definitely falls into the "intentional" category and allows you to call the technical foul here.

[K-Bach]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the ball is dead, you can't call a personal foul. It has to be a technical foul if anything. The rule (see Bob's post above for the reference) says it must be intentional or flagrant to call it.
Now, a purposeful shove or elbow definitely falls into the "intentional" category and allows you to call the technical foul here.

I wish to refer you to the context of my original comment -- a sarcastic response to OS. Of course, dead ball fouls must be technical; however, the genius that is OS, master of the NBA, D-1, all levels/genders of HS, does not call a T unless it is flagrant or intentional. Clearly, his mastery of game management exceeds my ability to bow before it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by K-Bach

Clearly, his mastery of game management exceeds my ability to bow before it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tmp44

1) had it been live ball, would have been a common foul

I know you said "and very possibly intentional" -- you need to decide that *before* you call the T. IF you decide that it would have been a common foul, then you should have ignored the contact (well, you probalby still should have addressed it, but you shouldn't have called the foul).

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I know you said "and very possibly intentional" -- you need to decide that *before* you call the T. IF you decide that it would have been a common foul, then you should have ignored the contact (well, you probalby still should have addressed it, but you shouldn't have called the foul).

Bob,

I don't disagree, but it was honestly the reaction of the girl who got pushed that led me to the technical. if she throws the ball in retaliation, there is no way I can go to her coach without also having a technical on the girl who pushed her. And it would have been enough of an elapse of time where a simultaneous techincal would not have been possible.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by tmp44

Bob,

I don't disagree, but it was honestly the reaction of the girl who got pushed that led me to the technical. if she throws the ball in retaliation, there is no way I can go to her coach without also having a technical on the girl who pushed her. And it would have been enough of an elapse of time where a simultaneous techincal would not have been possible.

What did you just say? The reaction of the other player that led you to call a technical foul!!! How the hell did you get a playoff game? Now, if the girl retaliates by throwing the ball at the opponent. Now you can step up and call a double technical!!!! Do you know where the balls going afterwards if you would have called a DT?