Violation or not? Stepping IB's without the ball

[MJT]

In tonights game, a player was taking the ball OOB's after a made basket. He lost his balance, but before stepping IB's, dropped the ball beside him and stepped IB's. A violation was called. Was this correct or could he have stepped back OOB's, retrieved the ball and then threw it IB's?

[badgerfan]

The rule, as I understand it, is that once the inbound is administered, the player is not allowed to step over the end line.

Please correct as required.

[Four-Oh]

At first reading, I didn't see a violation here, but after examining it further (or actually thought about it! ), I found the following:

The Fed (7-5-7) and NCAA (7-5.8) rules are worded similarly here. Essentially, a player taking the throw-in after a score has two options: to make a direct throw-in pass IB, or pass the ball to another teammate OOB.

According to NCAA Approved Ruling 155 (text on page BR-133 of the NCAA rules, following 7-5.8), the player in your situation has done neither and has, therefore, violated.

I don't know if there is a similar Fed case play to cover this (I'm sure someone will feel free to quote it if there is!), but I would think they would rule in the same way.

I wouldn't feel so bad about this if it were a baseball question, but, geez, I've been officiating basketball (on the floor and at the table) since I was in HS... hell, it put me through university, and that was a while ago!

Oh well, you never stop learning, right?

Andrew

[Four-Oh]

Originally Posted by badgerfan

The rule, as I understand it, is that once the inbound is administered, the player is not allowed to step over the end line.

Please correct as required.

That was what I was originally thinking. But Fed 9-2-5 actually states that "[t]he thrower shall not carry the ball onto the court." The same prohibition exists as part of NCAA 9-5.1e. But in the play from the OP, the thrower left the ball behind. That's why I went looking for more info.

Andrew

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Four-Oh

The Fed (7-5-7) and NCAA (7-5.8) rules are worded similarly here. Essentially, a player taking the throw-in after a score has two options: to make a direct throw-in pass IB, or pass the ball to another teammate OOB.

According to NCAA Approved Ruling 155 (text on page BR-133 of the NCAA rules, following 7-5.8), the player in your situation has done neither and has, therefore, violated.

I don't know if there is a similar Fed case play to cover this (I'm sure someone will feel free to quote it if there is!), but I would think they would rule in the same way.

How is NCAA AR155 relevant to the play in the original post? They passed the ball in that play. In the play being discussed, the player just dropped the ball OOB and then stepped in-bounds without the ball. There is no violation that I know of under either NCAA or NCAA rules that says a player without the ball can't legally step inbounds and then go back OOB during an non- designated spot throw-in.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by badgerfan

The rule, as I understand it, is that once the inbound is administered, the player is not allowed to step over the end line.

Please correct as required.

OK. The player that stepped over the end line was not touching or being touched by the ball while he was doing so. That's legal. Any player of the throwing team can legally step in bounds and then go back OOB during a non-designated spot throw-in. If you look at the throw-in violations listed under NFHS rule 9-2, you won't find anything stating that the player has violated for stepping in and out of bounds without the ball on an unrestricted throw-in. If you do find something, please cite it.

[TimTaylor]

I agree with JR - no violation here. However, the official should have started a 5 second count when the player's team initially had the ball at their disposal for the inbound, and the count continues while all this is going on. Depending on how long this all took, it's quite possible that there could be a 5 second violation.

[Nevadaref]

Despite the new NCAA A.R., which I believe is a poor ruling and will likely be revisited, there is absolutely nothing under NFHS rules which prohibit this player's actions. Thus put me on the same side as JR = no violation here.

BTW we just had this discussion over on the NFHS forum, and MJT you even posted in that thread!

http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...;f=11;t=001425

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by MJT

In tonights game, a player was taking the ball OOB's after a made basket. He lost his balance, but before stepping IB's, dropped the ball beside him and stepped IB's. A violation was called. Was this correct or could he have stepped back OOB's, retrieved the ball and then threw it IB's?

No violation for dropping the ball OOB and stepping inbounds. The occurs often when a team is being pressed and the wrong person is initially inbounding the ball. He/She will put the ball down and a new thrower will retrieve it and resume the throw-in.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Despite the new NCAA A.R., which I believe is a poor ruling and will likely be revisited, there is absolutely nothing under NFHS rules which prohibit this player's actions. Thus put me on the same side as JR = no violation here.

BTW we just had this discussion over on the NFHS forum, and MJT you even posted in that thread!

http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...;f=11;t=001425

That was 11 days ago, and my brain forgets everything after 2 days so that one was wiped clean. My post in that thread was an OOB's to OOB's pass and then a pass IB's which I know is legal. I thought this one was also, but wanted more opinions, didn't have time to look it up, and forgot about that one.

[Nevadaref]

So you're pleading CRS. Ok.

[Four-Oh]

[Note: sorry for those who read this just after it was originally posted: I hit the wrong key and it was posted prematurely! ]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

How is NCAA AR155 relevant to the play in the original post? They passed the ball in that play. In the play being discussed, the player just dropped the ball OOB and then stepped in-bounds without the ball. There is no violation that I know of under either NCAA or NCAA rules that says a player without the ball can't legally step inbounds and then go back OOB during an non- designated spot throw-in.

Because, in both the OP and this play, the player was first to touch the ball upon returning OOB (i.e., no teammate receives the pass along the endline). The ruling states that it is A1's retouching of the ball, not the return OOB, that is the violation.

However, having read your response and that of other officials who have posted responses here (and elsewhere): as far as Fed goes, it seems that the consensus is that this is not a violation. I defer to your experience (and my first reaction!)
Andrew

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Four-Oh

Because, in both the OP and this play, the player was first to touch the ball upon returning OOB (i.e., no teammate receives the pass along the endline). The ruling states that it is A1's retouching of the ball, not the return OOB, that is the violation.

It's not a violation in NCAA ball either. A fumble is not a pass. You're trying to use an AR that isn't relevant or applicable.