Make the dam call!!!

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not true. The rule states something like "... provide the scorer with the names and numbers of the roster and 5 starters...."

It states nothing about "ensure the correct information is in the book."

What he said. The first thing I do in these cases is to find out if it's possibly a clerical error.

[Back In The Saddle]

I agree with you, CLH (but I will make allowances for extenuating circumstances). Wednesday I was working a JV game. Sub comes in, table buzzes us, sub isn't in the book. I tell the coach, he says, "Yeah, he is, but he's under number 23. That's my bad." We signal the T, shoot the throws, move on with the game. That team lost by 2, but the T was hardly the deciding factor.

At the lower levels, us just giving the T becomes a learning experience for the coaches as well as being just takin' care of business.

[Eastshire]

At that level, I call over the visiting coach and explain what happened. Nine times out of ten the coach will say, "Just change it." and we will. If he doesn't, we administer the T.

The Jr High level is more about the kids learning to play. Why penalize the kids for something that isn't there fault?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not true. The rule states something like "... provide the scorer with the names and numbers of the roster and 5 starters...."

It states nothing about "ensure the correct information is in the book."

Here's the exact wording:

SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:
ART. 1 . . . Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.

Just padding my post count this morning

[Big2Cat]

Yes. From a coaching standpoint, if I mess up my book in junior high, I am not going to get upset and accept my T. It is my responsibility.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

At that level, I call over the visiting coach and explain what happened. Nine times out of ten the coach will say, "Just change it." and we will. If he doesn't, we administer the T.

The Jr High level is more about the kids learning to play. Why penalize the kids for something that isn't there fault?

Why have any rules at all. Why not just get the two coaches together before the game and decide together what rules you'll enforce for that game. Hey we could even poll the coaches on controversial foul calls.

I'd be willing to bet that you'd get the same easy acceptance of the T "nine times out of ten." It's a basic life lesson for the kids: sometimes bad things happen because those above you screw up. Deal with it; move on.

[tnzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I will give you a simple answer, "it is not the same." I know we like to talk about how it is, but it is not. I can speak for myself on this. I do feel that I want a technical to be just as obvious as a T. Whether we like it or not, we are not scrutinized as much for a T. Just read other posts where people are going to write letters about an official that gave a T.

Peace

I agree, no T. It's different. JMO

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Why have any rules at all. Why not just get the two coaches together before the game and decide together what rules you'll enforce for that game. Hey we could even poll the coaches on controversial foul calls.

I'd be willing to bet that you'd get the same easy acceptance of the T "nine times out of ten." It's a basic life lesson for the kids: sometimes bad things happen because those above you screw up. Deal with it; move on.

The reality is that the rules are optimized for the play of 16-18 year olds. To say that allowing a coach to hand wave a very technical violation of a rule for a game between 12 and 13 year olds is tantamount to throwing out the whole rulesbook is a bit extreme. Relax a bit and help the kids learn the game.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by CLH

Just gonna vent for a second. Me and my partner tonight, (both top tier varsity guys in our chapter), covering a last minute jr high game tonight. Home team has bad number in the book, calls me over, easy T right? My partner says man just change it and lets go they're jr high boys, don't whack em.
CLH
ok, done venting.

Well go ahead and have at me CLH, but I might have suggested the same thing as your partner for a junior high game.

Half the time when I help out with junior high games, the coach is some woodshop teacher that doesn't even know the game. I might not feeling like punishing the kids with an administrative T. Heck, I might just add the name to the book myself and have it be my dirty little secret. It all depends.

[chartrusepengui]

Problem is - then the woodshop teacher who knows nothing - still is a woodshop teacher who knows nothing.

[Rich]

I'm just going to be completely honest:

I would fix it and move on regardless of the other coach's reaction.

I just noticed zebraman's post: What he said.

[ranjo]

SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:
ART. 1 . . . Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.

I agree all the names and numbers should be in the book correctly and penalized when discovered to be incorrect. But what about the second part of the rule that says the home book should be ready at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time. If I followed that rule on the junior varsity circuit, we would be starting about 50% of the games with a T. Lots of games follow other games with 15 minute intervals and the books don't get together in time to copy everything within the allowed time frame.

How many of you strickly enforce that rule? If you don't, I don't see how you can enforce the first part of the rule if the book can be corrected prior to the game starting.

I have been known to stop the clock before the 10 minute mark to prevent some of this stuff from happening. I know the rule, but if I can prevent a book keeping error up front, I will.

[chartrusepengui]

[QUOTE=Eastshire]

The reality is that the rules are optimized for the play of 16-18 year olds. To say that allowing a coach to hand wave a very technical violation of a rule for a game between 12 and 13 year olds is tantamount to throwing out the whole rulesbook is a bit extreme. Relax a bit and help the kids learn the game.[/

QUOTE]



Again - if we teach 12 and 13 year olds/parents/coaches that it's just a minor unimportant "mistake" that can be forgiven - then we should not be suprised by thier outrage when they get the T at age 16-18. Giving the T teaches them that there is a consequence - even for coaches etc . If we forgive this, why not forgive the the intentional foul - just have a nice "church chat" with them telling them not to do it again. If a fight breaks out we could all sit around the center circle and have a discussion about "good touches and bad touches". Bottom line is - if we don't enforce the rules - they won't learn the rules. Enforce the rule, give the T and then explain at this level.

[RushmoreRef]

Had this situation that is similar.....HT (official scorer) is notoriously slow in getting things in the book....Visitors get him the info at the 12 minute mark....he's still writing at the 5 minute mark.....new coach for HT wants a T....No, I told him the book was made available before the 10 minute mark.

Right or wrong?

[deecee]

lol these MS games with these really life altering issues that HAVE to be dealt with by the letter of the basektball law cracks me up.

I am very proud that you knew the rule and you taught the 7/8th grade aspiring woodshop/bobby knight coach a lesson. [end sarcasm]

who cares -- by the book you are right and I agree with you -- by the laws of common sense I disagree and I would make it clear to the coach what IS expected of him and the book but MS -- you barely have someone to do the book, do the time, they probably practice twice a week for an hour with someone who probably isnt a very good coach but is there because he enjoys it. To go by the letter of basketball law in some situations is a bit far fetched IMO. [rant off]