Make the dam call!!!

SMEngmann

Rut, I think you're misinterpreting what CLH is saying. CLH is saying that he called the T when the predominant majority of officials would've just let it slide, so I think the two of you are in agreement. CLH took some issue with RefDaddy's comment because he feels that his comment was a cop out, or a rationalization of mistakes by officials, where CLH feels that we shouldn't rationalize, just strive to get calls right and admit mistakes when we make them. Just clearing that up 😉

As for the book, I will have a coach or assistant coach initial that everything is correct when I check the book so that if this situation arises I don't have to be a detective or rationalize why mistakes are made. I had a situation in a playoff game last year where a player from the visiting team had to be added to the book late and we started the game with FTs, and the coach couldn't argue because it was his mistake for not verifying the info.

Nevadaref

My attitude is that we should not be afraid to make the correct call whether that be a technical foul, intentional foul, or a travel. Officiating is about courage.

Do it right and don't worry about it. Good job, CLH. 🙂

JRutledge

SMEngmann wrote
Rut, I think you're misinterpreting what CLH is saying. CLH is saying that he called the T when the predominant majority of officials would've just let it slide, so I think the two of you are in agreement. CLH took some issue with RefDaddy's comment because he feels that his comment was a cop out, or a rationalization of mistakes by officials, where CLH feels that we shouldn't rationalize, just strive to get calls right and admit mistakes when we make them. Just clearing that up 😉

I see that he called the T, but so what. He made the right call. Why does it matter that his partner wanted to not call the T?

Also I think it is a generalization to say that officials are afraid to make this call. I have never had that discussion with a partner that I can ever think of about that kind of situation. I hope he has more evidence than just one experience. I have known many officials that have handed out this T, I know I have twice already this year and the only debate I had was with the coach (he blamed me for the mistake thinking I was supposed to catch his mistake).

Peace

ronny mulkey

SM,

If the mistake is because of transcription or clerical error, then having this coach initialize the book does not make it his/her mistake. As Rut said, look at the reason for the mistake. Coaches are busy immediately before a game and they have complied by submitting a correct roster or starting lineup. Now, you want them to verify someone else's work right before the game.

chartrusepengui

yes - it is the coaches mistake. He/she ultimately responsible for making sure correct info is in the book. If they don't want to take the time from their "busy pregame schedule" to check and verify that the info is correct - it is their fault when a T occurs. If they check and find a mistake then they can chastise whoever was responsible - and there will be no need for a T. I was a varsity coach for many years as well as an official for 23 years so I understand both sides of this issue. It does not take that long to look in a book and see if everything is correct. I have not had a coach initial as in previous posts - but starting tonight I will. GREAT idea!!!!!!!!!!!!🙂

IREFU2

Nevadaref wrote
My attitude is that we should not be afraid to make the correct call whether that be a technical foul, intentional foul, or a travel. Officiating is about courage.

Do it right and don't worry about it. Good job, CLH. 🙂

I concur on that statement totally!!!!!!

Big2Cat

From my read, I don't think RefDaddy was being condescending or trying to cop out from the T. He was saying the T was only 1 point. The Visitors still had to score 35 other points to win. So while the final difference was 1 point, you can't specifically say the 1 point from the T made the difference. The difference could have been the unguarded player who made the wide open layup.

Yeah, the T was right. But sometimes we don't realize that some junior high schools have coaches thrown into a position because they need a body and many times are just trying to learn to coach and make mistakes with their book. It doesn't hurt to have a graceful spirit and point out mistakes without penalizing. As a junior high coach and basketball official, I wouldn't be upset if the other team were not given a T because the book was wrong. It is not all about winning at this level.

bob jenkins

chartrusepengui wrote
yes - it is the coaches mistake. He/she ultimately responsible for making sure correct info is in the book.

Not true. The rule states something like "... provide the scorer with the names and numbers of the roster and 5 starters...."

It states nothing about "ensure the correct information is in the book."

chartrusepengui

Fine - but if I'm the coach - it's my T - administrative or not and it hurts the team i am coaching therefore - if I take my job seriously - its my responsibility.

Dan_ref

bob jenkins wrote
Not true. The rule states something like "... provide the scorer with the names and numbers of the roster and 5 starters...."

It states nothing about "ensure the correct information is in the book."

What he said. The first thing I do in these cases is to find out if it's possibly a clerical error.

Back In The Saddle

I agree with you, CLH (but I will make allowances for extenuating circumstances). Wednesday I was working a JV game. Sub comes in, table buzzes us, sub isn't in the book. I tell the coach, he says, "Yeah, he is, but he's under number 23. That's my bad." We signal the T, shoot the throws, move on with the game. That team lost by 2, but the T was hardly the deciding factor.

At the lower levels, us just giving the T becomes a learning experience for the coaches as well as being just takin' care of business.

Eastshire

At that level, I call over the visiting coach and explain what happened. Nine times out of ten the coach will say, "Just change it." and we will. If he doesn't, we administer the T.

The Jr High level is more about the kids learning to play. Why penalize the kids for something that isn't there fault?

Back In The Saddle

bob jenkins wrote
Not true. The rule states something like "... provide the scorer with the names and numbers of the roster and 5 starters...."

It states nothing about "ensure the correct information is in the book."

Here's the exact wording:

SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:
ART. 1 . . . Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.

Just padding my post count this morning 😉

Big2Cat

Yes. From a coaching standpoint, if I mess up my book in junior high, I am not going to get upset and accept my T. It is my responsibility.

Back In The Saddle

Eastshire wrote
At that level, I call over the visiting coach and explain what happened. Nine times out of ten the coach will say, "Just change it." and we will. If he doesn't, we administer the T.

The Jr High level is more about the kids learning to play. Why penalize the kids for something that isn't there fault?

Why have any rules at all. Why not just get the two coaches together before the game and decide together what rules you'll enforce for that game. Hey we could even poll the coaches on controversial foul calls.

I'd be willing to bet that you'd get the same easy acceptance of the T "nine times out of ten." It's a basic life lesson for the kids: sometimes bad things happen because those above you screw up. Deal with it; move on.

tnzebra

JRutledge wrote
I will give you a simple answer, "it is not the same." I know we like to talk about how it is, but it is not. I can speak for myself on this. I do feel that I want a technical to be just as obvious as a T. Whether we like it or not, we are not scrutinized as much for a T. Just read other posts where people are going to write letters about an official that gave a T.

Peace

I agree, no T. It's different. JMO

Eastshire

Back In The Saddle wrote
Why have any rules at all. Why not just get the two coaches together before the game and decide together what rules you'll enforce for that game. Hey we could even poll the coaches on controversial foul calls.

I'd be willing to bet that you'd get the same easy acceptance of the T "nine times out of ten." It's a basic life lesson for the kids: sometimes bad things happen because those above you screw up. Deal with it; move on.

The reality is that the rules are optimized for the play of 16-18 year olds. To say that allowing a coach to hand wave a very technical violation of a rule for a game between 12 and 13 year olds is tantamount to throwing out the whole rulesbook is a bit extreme. Relax a bit and help the kids learn the game.

zebraman

CLH wrote
Just gonna vent for a second. Me and my partner tonight, (both top tier varsity guys in our chapter), covering a last minute jr high game tonight. Home team has bad number in the book, calls me over, easy T right? My partner says man just change it and lets go they're jr high boys, don't whack em.
CLH
ok, done venting.😉

Well go ahead and have at me CLH, but I might have suggested the same thing as your partner for a junior high game.

Half the time when I help out with junior high games, the coach is some woodshop teacher that doesn't even know the game. I might not feeling like punishing the kids with an administrative T. Heck, I might just add the name to the book myself and have it be my dirty little secret. It all depends.

chartrusepengui

Problem is - then the woodshop teacher who knows nothing - still is a woodshop teacher who knows nothing.

Rich

I'm just going to be completely honest:

I would fix it and move on regardless of the other coach's reaction.

I just noticed zebraman's post: What he said.