Make the dam call!!!

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Problem is - then the woodshop teacher who knows nothing - still is a woodshop teacher who knows nothing.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that. It isn't my job to educate the woodshop teacher. It's just my job to try to be fair and use common sense. If you were the R for the game and decided to assess the T anyway, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. No big deal either way.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

To go by the letter of basketball law in some situations is a bit far fetched IMO. [rant off]

I disagree. Going by the letter of the law in some situations isn't farfetched at all imo. Going by the letter of the law in all situations is farfetched.

[SeanFitzRef]

Seems to me that this is going to be a split topic. Half of us would administer the T, others wouldn't. Some call every travel that occurs in a 6th grade game, some don't.

CLH and his partner disagreed on how to handle the sitch, but CLH got his way, and they moved on.

I agree that at some levels you can do more teaching than administering, and to each his or her own. We should all know what the rules are, even if the coaches don't. The application of the rules is our most fundamental duty during any game, but we will ALL pass on some things that are clearly in violation of said rules. Otherwise, we'd still be reffing games from 2003 right now. CLH felt it was his duty to call the T this time, and he did. I wouldn't have, but that's me.

[CoachP]

Hey, pretty soon we'll have middle school games on ESPN,.... hey don't laugh.

Coaches should know this rule. I learned my lesson from a T, and since then, I put all my players names and numbers in MSWord and just print it out before each game. Hence, if my bookkeeper screws up, I have hardcopy proof I provided it to them correctly.

Plus, with all this T talk, it's just a technicallity, hence the term "technical foul" , .....and it's not like an Official is gonna blow the whistle as loud as he can and give it his best Oscar performance "T" signal, I say call it every level......my 2 cents.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Plus, with all this T talk, it's just a technicallity, hence the term "technical foul" , .....and it's not like an Official is gonna blow the whistle as loud as he can and give it his best Oscar performance "T" signal, I say call it every level......my 2 cents.

Agreed, and I think this is the salient point. You don't have to make a spectacle out of it and embarrass the offending coach, you can make it a teaching opportunity.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

Had this situation that is similar.....HT (official scorer) is notoriously slow in getting things in the book....Visitors get him the info at the 12 minute mark....he's still writing at the 5 minute mark.....new coach for HT wants a T....No, I told him the book was made available before the 10 minute mark.

Right or wrong?

you were correct.....there is a team in this area that has his names/numbers printed out on a piece of paper that just needs taped in the book...it works very well....as far as the OP I have handled it both ways in Jr Hi games

[chartrusepengui]

[

QUOTE=fiasco]Agreed, and I think this is the salient point. You don't have to make a spectacle out of it and embarrass the offending coach, you can make it a teaching opportunity.

[/QUOTE]

I think we should all agree to that!

[deecee]

that is why i carry a whiteboard and markers to the game...

[ronny mulkey]

yes - it is the coaches mistake. He/she ultimately responsible for making sure correct info is in the book. If they don't want to take the time from their "busy pregame schedule" to check and verify that the info is correct - it is their fault when a T occurs. If they check and find a mistake then they can chastise whoever was responsible - and there will be no need for a T. I was a varsity coach for many years as well as an official for 23 years so I understand both sides of this issue. It does not take that long to look in a book and see if everything is correct. I have not had a coach initial as in previous posts - but starting tonight I will. GREAT idea!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

I disagree strongly with even asking the coach to initialize anything. What are you gonna do if he doesn't want to do it? And, if he doesn't want to do it and a mistake is made by the "home" team's bookkeeper, are you still gonna call a T?

It is NOT the coach's responsibility to ensure table personnel has entered the data properly. He should have already checked it for accuracy when he SUBMITTED it to the table personnel. If you determine that he submitted it properly and correctly, why the T?

Bottom line, the coach's initialization does not relinquish his team's opportunity for you to use common sense in determining if the coach was at fault, or the table personnel was at fault.

[chartrusepengui]

I disagree strongly with even asking the coach to initialize anything. What are you gonna do if he doesn't want to do it?

Nothing, except if there is an error, I won't have to listen to his excuses that someone else is at fault.

And, if he doesn't want to do it and a mistake is made by the "home" team's bookkeeper, are you still gonna call a T?

You bet - if he is too stuffy, arrogant, busy or whatever too take a few seconds to check! If ya don't have the ba!!s - you shouldn't be on the court.

It is NOT the coach's responsibility to ensure table personnel has entered the data properly. He should have already checked it for accuracy when he SUBMITTED it to the table personnel. If you determine that he submitted it properly and correctly, why the T?

That is exactly what you would be trying to ascertain by having him look it over and initial - or just having him confirm everything is ok. No finger pointing at scorekeeper to try and cover an intentional or inadvertant error, or for them to cover their azz.

Bottom line, the coach's initialization does not relinquish his team's opportunity for you to use common sense in determining if the coach was at fault, or the table personnel was at fault.

[/QUOTE]

Bottom line - having him check it over is COMMON SENSE so that you can alleviate any potential problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[deecee]

no i diasagree and you are wrong -- the coaches job is NOT to baby sit the book to MAKE SURE that what HE gave them WAS entered AS he GAVE them.

you are taking the onus off the scorekeeper for screwing up and putting it on the coach. "coach do you want to double check the book" "I gave them all the info can the book not copy it in correctly."

having him check over it is not COMMON SENSE on HIS part -- yes for us it could alleviate issues for US and HELP US in our job. However IT IS NOT his duty to make sure that if he submitted #15 as the starter and the book entered it as #25 that HE should be held accountable because YOU think HE should do YOUR job.

everyone has a role -- who are you to get mad if you have much higher expectations from said role -- do you coach players while you officiate -- I know I do not -- I answer questions if a player asks but I dont coach, and a coach doesnt keep the scorebook. their role with the book ends once they submit starters -- from there usually each team has at least at the varsity level has a scorebook person who does it for all the games (home and away) thats their role. I am yet to give a pregame administrative T and I hope that never happens. If an administrative issue comes up during the game I try my darndest to make sure that the punishment I hand out IS aimed at the party responsible. If I can avoid an administrative T I will do whatever I can -- but if it turns out that the team was responsible and they were at fault then they earned the T. however a team has to be really negligent in reality to get a pregame administrative T.

[chartrusepengui]

hey deecee --- I totally disagree with you on this one, but, as they say, "opinions are like a$$oles - we all gottem and they all stink!" I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

You bet - if he is too stuffy, arrogant, busy or whatever too take a few seconds to check! If ya don't have the ba!!s - you shouldn't be on the court.


That is exactly what you would be trying to ascertain by having him look it over and initial - or just having him confirm everything is ok. No finger pointing at scorekeeper to try and cover an intentional or inadvertant error, or for them to cover their azz.

Bottom line - having him check it over is COMMON SENSE so that you can alleviate any potential problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Having him check might be a nice preventative measure but it in no way puts the onus on him to ensure that it is correct. The rules very clearly say that the team only has to provide the info by 10 minutes. Anything else is a clerical error.

I will NEVER give a T for an error in the book when the team provided it properly. It doesn't matter if you had the coach recite every entry in the book 10 times before initializing the book. To call a T in this situation is simply making up your own rules...and in a way that doesn't make anything better (and may make it worse).

It is complete NONSENSE to do anything else.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Nothing, except if there is an error, I won't have to listen to his excuses that someone else is at fault.



You bet - if he is too stuffy, arrogant, busy or whatever too take a few seconds to check! If ya don't have the ba!!s - you shouldn't be on the court.


That is exactly what you would be trying to ascertain by having him look it over and initial - or just having him confirm everything is ok. No finger pointing at scorekeeper to try and cover an intentional or inadvertant error, or for them to cover their azz.

Bottom line - having him check it over is COMMON SENSE so that you can alleviate any potential problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Common sense and balls sometimes get in the way of each other. See my previous post and see C. Rust's post. I don't like the procedure - use it if you want, but don't throw out common sense when trying to determine the reason for an error in the book.

[RookieDude]

Had a T in a NFHS Varsity Boys game the other night, because of a "Admin. error".
Very experienced official told me it was a "clerical error" and no T...if he had been doing the game....Reason: "the table crew is part of "our" crew...so it is our mistake, not the coach's."

You make the call:

Mid way through the 1st Qt. player #45 was subed in before the second horn during a full time-out. Second horn sounds and players get ready for the throw-in. The table waves me over before we get the throw-in under way. The home book had player #45 (I'll call him Homer) listed as #41...as did the visiting teams book. So ol Homer was listed in both books as #41...not the #45 that he was wearing.

I got with my crew, informed both coaches of the T, and away we went.

Thoughts or comments? Such as where was ball taken out...T foul go toward the bonus...seat belt...etc?