Very well officiated D-I game last night

[SouthGARef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is an approved mechanic. You have the option of staying inside or outside of the thrower. I will have to review the CCA Manual, but it has been an option in the NF for sure. I do not personally like the mechanic, but there is an option.

Peace

I use the mechanic a lot. How about when a throw in from the baseline in the front court is at the intersection of the 3-point line? If I stand outside the thrower, I'm basically off the court. If the offense tries a dish to a post player for a quick layup, I'm totally out of the play.

By standing on the inside on situations like these, you can get a better view. I agree that as a general basis you should stand on the outside. However, in cases like these it is very important that you get that "inside-out" look.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SouthGARef

I use the mechanic a lot. How about when a throw in from the baseline in the front court is at the intersection of the 3-point line? If I stand outside the thrower, I'm basically off the court. If the offense tries a dish to a post player for a quick layup, I'm totally out of the play.

By standing on the inside on situations like these, you can get a better view. I agree that as a general basis you should stand on the outside. However, in cases like these it is very important that you get that "inside-out" look.

Do you have a problem in 2 man when you are outside?

If the ball is out on the baseline, you can pretty much put the ball in anywhere on the baseline. I do not throw on the end line right where the ball went out. So I put them usually in the between the sideline and the FT lane line. It is usually not a problem and whether a player takes the ball a few steps one way or another step the other way. I am not saying you should never use it, I just personally do not like it and I would not teach against it.

Peace

[rainmaker]

I don't watch too much for calls or no-calls, mechanics, or rules. Those are going to be much different in the kinds of games I do. I watch to see where the refs are looking, and what they're watching for. It's usually not that hard to tell. It gives me a feel for how to get an angle, and when to be focusing where.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the ball is out on the baseline, you can pretty much put the ball in anywhere on the baseline. I do not throw on the end line right where the ball went out. So I put them usually in the between the sideline and the FT lane line.

I don't agree with this. Tell me if something has changed in the manual, but as far as I know, we are supposed to put the ball in where it went out unless it goes out in the lane area. If what you are saying is true, what would be the difference if the ball went out on the sideline?
If something in the manual has changed, then it is OK to put the ball in play anyplace along the endline. If things haven't changed, the ball is supposed to be put in where it went out or close (by the diagram).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I don't agree with this. Tell me if something has changed in the manual, but as far as I know, we are supposed to put the ball in where it went out unless it goes out in the lane area. If what you are saying is true, what would be the difference if the ball went out on the sideline?
If something in the manual has changed, then it is OK to put the ball in play anyplace along the endline. If things haven't changed, the ball is supposed to be put in where it went out or close (by the diagram).

So you are telling me that you have to under no circumstances put the ball at the exact point of where the ball went out no matter what. So if I am on a court that has the words "PANTHERS" on the end line (I am watching the Loyola and North Central on ESPN2 right now) and the ball goes out on the "P" we cannot move the player to the "A" or the "N" under no circumstance? You are going to have to show me that reference that you cannot do that. I am talking about a couple of steps, not from one side of the court to the other. Also, I have never had a coach care in that situation before. I have even seen guys take the ball out to the opposite side of the court and not seen anyone say anything about it (I would not do that).

Peace

[tomegun]

I'm only talking about the fact that you said you can put the ball anywhere on the endline. I'm not going to split hairs with a foot one way or the other. Now that I have (somewhat) answered your question, can you answer mine? Do you really put the ball anywhere or do you put the ball at the spot, or pretty close, to where it is supposed to be?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I'm only talking about the fact that you said you can put the ball anywhere on the endline. I'm not going to split hairs with a foot one way or the other. Now that I have (somewhat) answered your question, can you answer mine? Do you really put the ball anywhere or do you put the ball at the spot, or pretty close, to where it is supposed to be?

I didn't go to sleep yet. What question didn't I answer that you asked before the post above?

If you are at lead and the ball goes out of bounds on the other side of the paint, do you put the ball in on the side you are on, on the side it went out on with you over there, or bounce it across the paint? You have yet to tell me what determines where you put the ball into play. If you answered that simple question, we could quite possibly move on and agree to disagree. I have never said anything to make you think I would measure where I put the ball into play, so that statement does not apply here. However, my common sense directsl me where to put the ball into play - I put the ball into play where it went out (unless in the paint area) because...that is where it went out. Doing anything else would be inconsistent to say the least. If you answer my questions it would really shed some light on your thinking because what you are saying now is weird to me. If the ball goes out of bounds or there is a violation, do you do the same thing for the sidelines? If not, why not? Weird.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I didn't go to sleep yet. What question didn't I answer that you asked before the post above?

If you are at lead and the ball goes out of bounds on the other side of the paint, do you put the ball in on the side you are on, on the side it went out on with you over there, or bounce it across the paint? You have yet to tell me what determines where you put the ball into play. If you answered that simple question, we could quite possibly move on and agree to disagree.

I do not understand where you were going with this. If you feel it is that important, you have the right to do what works for you. As I have said before, I have never had anyone complain that I did not put the ball out at the "precise" spot. I have had a coach complain after a made FT that I did not hand the thrower the ball on the opposite side of the court in a very loud gym and I did not understand the request. But that is the only time I can think of if there was an issue once we state where the ball goes on the end line if the ball is put at. If I let players dictate, they would take the ball in the lane most of the time. I have to move them all the time from standing right under the basket.

Originally Posted by tomegun

I have never said anything to make you think I would measure where I put the ball into play, so that statement does not apply here. However, my common sense directsl me where to put the ball into play - I put the ball into play where it went out (unless in the paint area) because...that is where it went out. Doing anything else would be inconsistent to say the least.

Once again, I am looking for a reference that states to do what you suggest. Other than that I do not see any reason to change.

Originally Posted by tomegun

If you answer my questions it would really shed some light on your thinking because what you are saying now is weird to me. If the ball goes out of bounds or there is a violation, do you do the same thing for the sidelines? If not, why not? Weird.

Tommy, I have never had this conversation with anyone, ever in my career. So forgive me if I am kind of wondering why this is even an issue. Now if you have a person issue with this that is OK, just as long as we understand that. Now that does not mean I drastically move the ball around, but if the ball intersects with the 3 point line and the end line, based on a lot of factors which I stated, I might likely move the player to the half way between the 3 point line and the lane line. To me it does not matter. Even on the sideline, the configuration of the gym and where fans are might dictate many places I put the ball in at just because we might not have space to attempt a throw out of bounds.

Peace

[MJT]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am talking about a couple of steps, not from one side of the court to the other. Also, I have never had a coach care in that situation before.

Peace

As long as it is just a couple of feet it is fine, but if you go more than that you could really change a teams options and put them at a disadvantage. I officiate but also coach our freshmen boys and I have 3 OOB plays that do not work well at all if we are more than 5 feet from the normal spot just outside the lane for our throw in.

[tomegun]

Coach (MJT), we aren't talking about allowing you to set up your play. We are talking about putting the ball where it rightfully belongs on the endline instead of just deciding where the ball should be inbounded. BTW, that is exactly what an official would be doing, plus or minus a foot, if they decide where to put the ball in play. Rut, what do you use to determine where you are going to put the ball into play?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Coach (MJT), we aren't talking about allowing you to set up your play. We are talking about putting the ball where it rightfully belongs on the endline instead of just deciding where the ball should be inbounded. BTW, that is exactly what an official would be doing, plus or minus a foot, if they decide where to put the ball in play. Rut, what do you use to determine where you are going to put the ball into play?

I must be missing something in your post. Are you saying that if the ball goes out at a specific spot, I am supposed to put the ball at that spot or I am violating some kind of rule?

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the ball is out on the baseline, you can pretty much put the ball in anywhere on the baseline. I do not throw on the end line right where the ball went out. So I put them usually in the between the sideline and the FT lane line.

Now that others have chimed in and helped me realize that I'm not totally crazy, look at the quote above.

No geometry class, or pulling out the ruler; I put the ball in approximately where it went out or where the violation occured - the exception is the ball going out of bounds in the lane area. That statement is very different from the quote above.

I would still like to know what determines and/or where the authority comes from to "put the ball in anywhere on the baseline." I just wish there was some straight talk and we could get to the bottom of that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Now that others have chimed in and helped me realize that I'm not totally crazy, look at the quote above.

No geometry class, or pulling out the ruler; I put the ball in approximately where it went out or where the violation occured - the exception is the ball going out of bounds in the lane area. That statement is very different from the quote above.

I would still like to know what determines and/or where the authority comes from to "put the ball in anywhere on the baseline." I just wish there was some straight talk and we could get to the bottom of that.

Honestly, I do not care what other people say here. We do not officiate on this board. We do officiate in the real world. In the real world I have never had this conversation with anyone, ever including Bob who I have worked with several times. I have never had him say one thing to me about this in pre-game or in basic conversation during meetings. I have never had anyone say this to me in the many camps I attend and I go to at least 5 a year and have had many D1 and higher level officials evaluate me at those camps. I have also never seen anyone told they must put the ball at the "exact spot." And since Bob and I work in relative similar areas, he would have to say this to a lot of people. As I said before, I have a hard enough time trying to get a player to not stand in the middle of the lane on any throw-in along the end line. If it was that important to the teams, you would think they would stand where the ball is. They hardly ever do.

The bottom line we do not agree. I am going to put the ball "anywhere along the end line" if it goes out there. I will put the ball pretty much it went out, but I am not going to lose sleep if I move a couple of feet one way or the other. Now that is me, it does not have to be you. I am still waiting for a reference that suggests that I am wrong. And I mean not an interpretation of what is said, a clear example that you must take it out at this point or else.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I will put the ball pretty much it went out...

I would like to make a humble suggestion: be consistent with what you say you will do. The quote above is a contradiction to what you said earlier.

I have never said you should put the ball in the exact spot, to the inch, where it want out. I say the ball should be put into play at the approximate spot where it went out.

I guess you can't say you have never had this conversation with another official, college or high school, because now you have. I too have never had this conversation, at least not at this length, with another official because it has never been necessary. Like I said earlier, I would bet money you put the ball in the (approximate) spot where it went out or else someone else would have said something to you about it.

I too don't officiate on this board and I don't think anything in this series of posts is so far-fetched to indicate otherwise. This is a no-brainer. There are so many other things to think about during a game, I don't have time to use something random to determine where I'm going to put the ball back into play. BTW, you have yet to say what determines where you put the ball into play. I don't buy the whole chearleader/fan thing. Saying a chearleader would be in the way and determine where the ball goes into play is weak. Since we don't officiate on this board, this should be something you have done thousands of times. The ball goes out of bounds at spot X and you decide to put the ball into play at spot Y, what determines this? If it is all the way in the corner, I can understand. If it is in the lane area, I can understand. Other than that, please tell me what determines why you wouldn't put the ball into play at the approximate location where it went out. Seems like I've asked you that question about 100 times and have yet to receive a simple answer.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I would like to make a humble suggestion: be consistent with what you say you will do. The quote above is a contradiction to what you said earlier.

I have never said you should put the ball in the exact spot, to the inch, where it want out. I say the ball should be put into play at the approximate spot where it went out.

I think I am very consistent in what I have said. "Approximate" means different things to different people. That word clearly means something to you different to you than it does to me.

Originally Posted by tomegun

I guess you can't say you have never had this conversation with another official, college or high school, because now you have. I too have never had this conversation, at least not at this length, with another official because it has never been necessary. Like I said earlier, I would bet money you put the ball in the (approximate) spot where it went out or else someone else would have said something to you about it.

When I say never, you know what I mean. If that has to be spelled out to you, well I really do not know what to tell you.

Originally Posted by tomegun

I too don't officiate on this board and I don't think anything in this series of posts is so far-fetched to indicate otherwise. This is a no-brainer. There are so many other things to think about during a game, I don't have time to use something random to determine where I'm going to put the ball back into play. BTW, you have yet to say what determines where you put the ball into play. I don't buy the whole chearleader/fan thing. Saying a chearleader would be in the way and determine where the ball goes into play is weak.

When you have been officiating as long as I have and in other sports for a similar length of period of time, many things are on auto-pilot. I worked in Ottawa, Illinois about a week ago. If anyone on this board has been at that school, there are bleachers just about 5 feet off the end line (approximately ). The cheerleaders stand right next to the court. All night we had to move cheerleaders and I was running into them all night just to try to work from the lead position. This was the case on both ends. It was a huge factor in where I put the ball in on the end line because there was so much congestion.

Originally Posted by tomegun

Since we don't officiate on this board, this should be something you have done thousands of times. The ball goes out of bounds at spot X and you decide to put the ball into play at spot Y, what determines this? If it is all the way in the corner, I can understand. If it is in the lane area, I can understand. Other than that, please tell me what determines why you wouldn't put the ball into play at the approximate location where it went out. Seems like I've asked you that question about 100 times and have yet to receive a simple answer.

Tommy, I have given you an example, after example, after example. If you do not want to accept this, that is OK with me. I have told you why I do things and you took it so literarily that you cannot understand why someone disagrees with you. Maybe you need an explanation for everything to make you feel better, but I do not. I will say that where I can stand is a factor, but it is not THE FACTOR.

Now the main reason I keep responding to you on this, it is fascinating that this really bothers you. It is almost like we brought up the “stop sign” issue. This is really fascinating that you want a detailed explanation of something I could give a damn about either way. I also have to admit this conversation is also entertaining.

Peace