Block/charge

[IUgrad92]

This has got to be a foul, otherwise you are making a determination not on the act itself, but on who the act was against. So at that point you are not treating all defenders equally. Not good, IMHO.

Rule 4-45-5 does not say there is not a foul if the defender doesn't fall down or act like he got hurt by the play. If the offensive player causes contact within the defender's vertical plan, then it is a foul.

I also apply 4-45-7 here too. The player with the ball is to be given NO MORE protection or consideration that the defender in judging which player has violated the rules.

I agree with Jimgolf. If this kind of contact is not called, where the offending player basically knocks himself to the ground, then you better look out. Things are going to get uglier.

Why do you think that the excess elbows violation has been added recently?? IMHO, previously, when no contact with excess elbows, no foul was typically called. BUT, the game got uglier because players were taking offense to that kind of act and retaliating to a degree, which in large part, gets caught by the official. The implemented violation for elbows keeps these things under check.

Lord help that guard that keeps chipping the center each time the center sets a screen. If he doesn't fall down, or acts hurt, etc. he's only going to take it for so long. Then of course, the only foul called will be on the center.......yikes.

[blindmanwalking]

Does anyone else snicker just a little when you see this happen?

[Adam]

Maybe we're seeing different plays in our heads or something; but I've seen a ton of plays where the ball handler runs into a stationary defender in the paint (normally a pg running into a tree), and usually it’s a no call. I can tell you this, I’ve never taken a bit of grief from the coach of the tree for a no call. Do you really think the pg is going to turn himself into some sort of human missile over and over again because we just call him for traveling?

Seriously, if the defender isn’t affected at all, then there’s no foul. If the pg runs in full speed and torpedoes him, then I might call it. But for 99% of the plays I can envision with this, you’ve got a pg running in, trying to avoid contact or draw a foul, and hitting a stationary defender who doesn’t get affected in the least.

You don’t call a kid for a minor push when there’s no advantage on the play.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

This has got to be a foul, otherwise you are making a determination not on the act itself, but on who the act was against. So at that point you are not treating all defenders equally. Not good, IMHO.

Rule 4-45-5 does not say there is not a foul if the defender doesn't fall down or act like he got hurt by the play. If the offensive player causes contact within the defender's vertical plan, then it is a foul.

I also apply 4-45-7 here too. The player with the ball is to be given NO MORE protection or consideration that the defender in judging which player has violated the rules.

I agree with Jimgolf. If this kind of contact is not called, where the offending player basically knocks himself to the ground, then you better look out. Things are going to get uglier.

Why do you think that the excess elbows violation has been added recently?? IMHO, previously, when no contact with excess elbows, no foul was typically called. BUT, the game got uglier because players were taking offense to that kind of act and retaliating to a degree, which in large part, gets caught by the official. The implemented violation for elbows keeps these things under check.

Lord help that guard that keeps chipping the center each time the center sets a screen. If he doesn't fall down, or acts hurt, etc. he's only going to take it for so long. Then of course, the only foul called will be on the center.......yikes.

first thing first -- the excess elbows violation has always been there -- it just used to be a T for the penalty which a lot of officials didnt want to call so they changed it to a violation.

what you are asking is to penalize players who are large because they might have an easy time making their power moves -- this case a smaller player bounced off a bigger player -- whats the foul? PC -- NO WAY punish the offense for what -- their player getting creamed and hitting the pine...I wont call it

[Adam]

Originally Posted by blindmanwalking

Does anyone else snicker just a little when you see this happen?

Discretely, yes.

[blindmanwalking]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Discretely, yes.

I've called games with this scenario happening. I don't call anything. The offensive player is penalized by the pain in his body from running into a tree and usually travels before he picks himself up off the floor. I'm not the only one in the gym snickering behind my whistle either. I have yet to hear a complaint from either coach on a no-call in this situation. They may be snickering too.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

This has got to be a foul, otherwise you are making a determination not on the act itself, but on who the act was against. So at that point you are not treating all defenders equally. Not good, IMHO.

I forgot to add, it's the result of the contact, when combined with the rules of who is responsible, that defines a foul. You need both.

And you make a determination based on who the contact is against every single time; you don't call a foul when A1 pushes A2 into position.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with the coach. The contact didn't prevent normal defensive maneuvers by the defender, so it was just incidental contact.

Furthermore, not only is it not a foul, but if the dribbler held onto the ball while falling to the court, the dribbler has committed a traveling violation.

MTD, Sr.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Furthermore, not only is it not a foul, but if the dribbler held onto the ball while falling to the court, the dribbler has committed a traveling violation.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

If the dribbler keeps the ball and falls with it, you might get away with a travel.

I beat you to that one by about 13 hours, Mark!

[IUgrad92]

Mark,

So when do you apply rule Rule 4-45-5? Only when the defender hits the ground or gets hurt from the contact by the offensive player?

[Adam]

So, when B1 reaches in and slaps A1's arm while A1 drives by him for a layup, are you going to call the slap and stop the layup?
If A1 bumps B1 from behind on a rebound but B1 gets the ball without being affected, are you going to call the push?

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So, when B1 reaches in and slaps A1's arm while A1 drives by him for a layup, are you going to call the slap and stop the layup?
Depends on the severity. If it is a slap that everyone and their brother can hear, then yep I call it and stop the layup. To me, the foul count, which is determining potential 1 and 1 or double bonus and for how much of the game a team has that benefit, has just as much effect (and maybe more) on the game as that layup.
If A1 bumps B1 from behind on a rebound but B1 gets the ball without being affected, are you going to call the push?
Again, depends on the severity. Slight bump, rebounder maintains control, then no. Hard bump, or where player is coming in out of control, but rebounder maintains control, then yep, I whistle that one.

Again, two good examples of where if you let all of this go as long as the offended player is 'not affected', is just giving a message to the defense that they might as well go for broke every play, instead of thinking twice on reaching, etc. Can't remember every calling more than 2 fouls on one player for a rebounding foul in one game. Usually after the first, and definitely after the second, they are very aware of the other players around them in a rebounding situation and make better decisions.

[deecee]

is just giving a message to the defense that they might as well go for broke every play

thats called hustle

what we are trying to explain is advantage/disadvantage -- 2 very key concepts in officiating

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by phansen

Defender is set and stationary when the offensive player dribbling the ball runs into the defender. Offensive player bounces off the defender and goes to the ground, while the defender is still standing in the same position. I call a charge. Coach gets upset and asks how his player can be on the ground and still get a charge while the defender is still standing. I agree it was unusual, but didn't have an answer to the question and still believe I made the correct call. Anybody have a similar situation and how have you handled it?

Phansen, it is good to question yourself about plays. It makes you better. In this instance I would probably leave this play alone, because the defender was not displaced and thus the offensive player did not or was not able to do anything. IMO, save the kid who got his butt knocked to the ground a foul, after all isn't it bad enough he got knocked down, plus it looks bad. This is a good instance where you could have kept the coach off of your back. By no calling it all he would have asked was why wasn't that a block, and you respond with something to the likes of, "the defender beat him to the spot" and in almost all circumstances he will leave you alone, and if nothing at all at least you gave him an answer compared to not having one as you stated. Always allow yourself a chance to let the play go through your "replay system" instead of blowing the whistle instantaneously in reaction to a play. I feel if you had done this, then you would have thought it through and understood that it doesn't make alot of sense to call a foul on the player who got knocked to the floor. This takes time to perfect, but once perfected or at least almost perfected it makes a world of difference, and you will see a great change in the amount of plays you get right as well.

P.S. Don't always try to be a rule book ref, when it comes to plays that involve judgement. The rulebook is a guideline, but always remember there are whistle blowers and there are referees in our line of work. Whistle blowers, just blow the whistle all the time, no matter what level. Referees understand the severity of contact and what the level is that they are officiating and judge plays accordingly. Do not be a whistle blower!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Again, two good examples of where if you let all of this go as long as the offended player is 'not affected', is just giving a message to the defense that they might as well go for broke every play, instead of thinking twice on reaching, etc. Can't remember every calling more than 2 fouls on one player for a rebounding foul in one game. Usually after the first, and definitely after the second, they are very aware of the other players around them in a rebounding situation and make better decisions.

The fact is that the rules don't call it a foul without advantage or displacement of some sort. I'll ask the question this way, as it paraphrases your question to Mark.

When do you apply rule 4-27?

Originally Posted by Rule Book

Article 1: The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul....
Article 3: Similarly, contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.

It's not a foul without an illegal advantage, so you are unfairly penalizing A1 on this if you call him for a foul; and you are unfairly adding to Team A's foul count.