Block/Charge

[IREFU2]

I am looking for the rule about Time and Distance when it comes to the Block/Charge & Legal Guarding Position. I know the defender has to give the dribbler a chance to avoid him.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

I know the defender has to give the dribbler a chance to avoid him.

You don't know that. FED 4-23-4a.

[ChuckElias]

NCAA 4-33-4c.

[IREFU2]

I looked at that, but it says no time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position. If the defender just slides in there, then that is not a legal guarding position.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

I looked at that, but it says no time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position. If the defender just slides in there, then that is not a legal guarding position.

Why not? You just said time and distance aren't required. If he "slides in there" before the dribbler gets there, he's legal.

[IREFU2]

It's kind of hard to visualize. Lets say, A1 is driving towards the basket and B1 slides right in the path of A1 and A1 doesnt have time to avoid B1. What do you have?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

It's kind of hard to visualize. Lets say, A1 is driving towards the basket and B1 slides right in the path of A1 and A1 doesnt have time to avoid B1. What do you have?

uhmmm...what we have depends on what you mean by "slides right in the path of", doesn't it?

All B1 has to do is obtain LGP (and maintain it under fed rules by staying inbounds) and not move "obliquely" into A1, the dribbler.

By no time or distance they mean there is no maximm or minimum.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

It's kind of hard to visualize. Lets say, A1 is driving towards the basket and B1 slides right in the path of A1 and A1 doesnt have time to avoid B1. What do you have?

If B1 obtains legal guarding position before the crash, I have "player control foul".

NCAA 4-33 Art. 3. Every player shall be entitled to a spot on the playing court, provided that such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

NCAA 4-33 Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.



Did B1 meet the above criteria? If so, why would you want to call a "block"?

Was this from camp??? Was there any sort of discussions by the observers???

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

It's kind of hard to visualize. Lets say, A1 is driving towards the basket and B1 slides right in the path of A1 and A1 doesnt have time to avoid B1. What do you have?

A rule of thumb that I've always used, is that if the offensive player made contact with the defender's chest/torso, the defender obtained LGP and a PC is the proper call.

[ChuckElias]

IREF, here's the point, IMHO. Once B1 has both feet on the floor and is facing A1, he's established LGP, even if he's 50 feet away (4-23-4). Once he's done that, he's allowed to move in any direction in order to maintain that guarding position (4-23-3c). Assuming A1 has the ball, B1 can land on a spot one millimeter in front of A1, and he can do it one millisecond before the contact occurs, and B1 has committed no infraction (as long as B1 is not moving toward A1 when the contact occurs).

Time and distance are not factors when playing the ballhandler, period.

[IREFU2]

Got it. I get the picture.

[TADW_Elessar]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Got it. I get the picture.

Another hint: you should look at where the contact occurs. If it occurs on the torso of the defensive player (assuming he has established and mantained a legal guarding position), then the dribbler is responsible (charge). If contact occurs on the knee, leg or arm of the defensive player it is a block, as it is illegal to impede the progress of an opponent extending such parts of the body.

I have seen this called a block several times.

Well... On the court it is more difficult than on the book, you know

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

I am looking for the rule about Time and Distance when it comes to the Block/Charge & Legal Guarding Position. I know the defender has to give the dribbler a chance to avoid him.

See case book play 10.6.2SitA. The ruling applies equally to other offensive players as well as the dribbler.

Time/distance applies to screening principles. See NFHS rules 4-40 and 10-6-3.

[rainmaker]

The way I've been able to make it work in real time, is to

(a) ref the defense, and (b) feel the beat. Think of the defender being in LGP as one thump of the snare drum. Think of the contact as a thump of the bass drum. If the rhythm of the play is Boom ---Tzeet then it's a block. If it's Tzeet -- Boom it's a charge. (I can't bring myself to call this the rhythm method -- can anyone think of a better name?)

Also regarding the cliche of seeing the contact in the torso, remember that a defender can "take a charge" even if he's not facing the dribbler. If the defender is just standing there waving to his mom in the stands, and doesn't move, and the dribbler plows into the defender's shoulder, it's still a charge. LGP only applies to a defender who's guarding. This poor sap is clueless, but he's still entitled to his spot on the floor, as long as he got there first.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Also regarding the cliche of seeing the contact in the torso, remember that a defender can "take a charge" even if he's not facing the dribbler. If the defender is just standing there waving to his mom in the stands, and doesn't move, and the dribbler plows into the defender's shoulder, it's still a charge.

Maybe in theory, but in practice all your games will be reffing kids who spend their time waving to their mom in the stands if you call it this way.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...just sayin'.