Officials err in OT game

[Zoochy]

http://prepsports.stltoday.com/ssi/p...7?OpenDocument
I do not know all the details, but..... what a mess. It has quite a few officials discussing this game.
I believe that 2 of the 3 officials have been selected to officiate Post Season State games. I know my name would be 'MUD' if I was working that game.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

http://prepsports.stltoday.com/ssi/p...7?OpenDocument
I do not know all the details, but..... what a mess. It has quite a few officials discussing this game.
I believe that 2 of the 3 officials have been selected to officiate Post Season State games. I know my name would be 'MUD' if I was working that game.

While I agree that it is sure a sour way to have to do it, Mr Probst needs to get into the rule book a little bit....Case Play 2.11.10 C....it is almost exactly what happened in this game. Nice to know an interpreter is so well informed when he publicly blasts officials.....what a maroooon

[Red_Killian]

What the heck was the table doing all game long? The article doesn't say which team was home but how could both books be off by this much???

From the article - "A play-by-play kept by the Post-Dispatch showed the final score should have actually been 64-62 in favor of Gateway Tech at the end of regulation."

So, cmmathews, what exactly was Mr Probst's error in interpreting the rules? If the officials had not approved the final score, came up with a 66-65 score, game over, no OT. The officials erred in playing the OT. The case play you reference has the error detected AFTER the OT had been started, not before.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by Red_Killian

What the heck was the table doing all game long? The article doesn't say which team was home but how could both books be off by this much???

From the article - "A play-by-play kept by the Post-Dispatch showed the final score should have actually been 64-62 in favor of Gateway Tech at the end of regulation."

So, cmmathews, what exactly was Mr Probst's error in interpreting the rules? If the officials had not approved the final score, came up with a 66-65 score, game over, no OT. The officials erred in playing the OT. The case play you reference has the error detected AFTER the OT had been started, not before.

yep my bad, and appologies to Mr. Probst...

[ltllng]

NFHS Case Play:

2.11.10 Situation C: The scorer mistakenly credits a field goal by A1 to B1 and Team B in the second quarter. The regulation game ends with the score tied. During a time-out in overtime, the scorer detects the mistake and advises the referee.

Ruling: The referee will have the mistake corrected. The overtime will continue with the corrected score. Once the ball becomes live in the overtime, the overtime will be played even though a subsequent correction of an error or mistake changes the score. A bookkeeping mistake can be corrected at any time until the final score is approved.

As in this case the overtime was in progress.
Once you start the overtime, you must complete it even if the error was previous.

The situation in this game was that there was only one person keeping score and they did not keep the running score, only the players points.

The visiting team did not have a book. Why the Post-Dispatch came up with a totally different score is unknown. The officials conferred with the scorekeeper at a timeout before the game was over and were told the book matched the scoreboard.

We all know of situations where the table has a couple of people that don't pay any attention to the game. We just have to figure out how to deal with the errors and practice good game management. It is just part of the game and is not limited to just basketball. I always try to watch the scoreboard to make sure things are right. If not we ususally hear it from the fans yelling at us that the score is wrong.

[BayStateRef]

Let's get the facts straight.

From the article:

At the end of regulation, with the teams tied 65-65 and headed for overtime, the three referees met and determined that there were inconsistencies between the scoreboard and official scorebook.

The referees then gave Miller Career Academy another point, making the score 66-65, before beginning the four-minute overtime period.

Once the officials determined the score was 66-65 AND the overtime had not started, the game is over. That is what the state rules interpreter was saying -- and he is correct.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Let's get the facts straight.

From the article:

At the end of regulation, with the teams tied 65-65 and headed for overtime, the three referees met and determined that there were inconsistencies between the scoreboard and official scorebook.

The referees then gave Miller Career Academy another point, making the score 66-65, before beginning the four-minute overtime period.

Once the officials determined the score was 66-65 AND the overtime had not started, the game is over. That is what the state rules interpreter was saying -- and he is correct.

I concur. No overtime should have been played.

[Zoochy]

Another piece of information that was in a 2nd article. With lest than a minute remaining a TO is granted. At that point officials chat with the table to discuss the score (and possible TO's remaining). They are told tie game. Both coaches go with this information and plan on how their team should conduct themselves (ex:foul player and/or plan for last second shot). Now if the score is not tied, then each team would have different instructions.
All in all ... it was a big clusterf#$k.

[tomegun]

Isn't this bad reporting? Did the officials give one team another point or did they come to the conclusion that the book needed to be fixed and that is how the team got the point? It just sounds like the officials made this decision and the book didn't have anything to do with it.

[deecee]

tom -- you really think this reporter got it ALL right -- dont you think the officials had REASON to put the point back on.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Isn't this bad reporting? Did the officials give one team another point or did they come to the conclusion that the book needed to be fixed and that is how the team got the point? It just sounds like the officials made this decision and the book didn't have anything to do with it.

I think the reporting is good enough to suggest strongly what happened.
From an earlier story:

There were several scoreboard errors Thursday that ended up awarding Miller Career Academy two extra points in regulation. With the game tied 65-65, Miller held the ball for the last shot and then missed a 3-pointer at the buzzer.

Before the four-minute overtime period began, the referees decided to award another point to host Miller Career Academy. So overtime started with Miller leading by one, 66-65.

The follow-up story says the officials had a problem reconciling the scorebook with the scoreboard because the scorebook did not have the running score.

From this, I gather the officials had the scorer count up all the points in the book. That made the score 66-65, and should have ended the game since the OT had not started.

We don't know why the visitors did not have a scorer, why the reporter had the score different (he had the visiting team ahead 64-62) or why there was no much confusion.

[iref4him]

Doesn't this err by the officials come down to the following:

1) pre-game talk with the scorer and timer. Their responsibilities. Letting the scorer know that the running score is very important.

2) I know in high school you are to verify the score at the end of each half, But, I still verify the score, fouls, etc with the scorer at the end of the quarter. I know you are only to do it at the end of the half, but it is great prevention.

3) Veteran officials have always taught me during time outs with a very close game, check the scorer to make sure everything is right - score, fouls, TOs. It helps prevents things like this occuring.

I know many officials who do not pre-game with the scorer or timer, it is very important. It lets them know that they are apart of official crew that night.

[deecee]

i guarantee your pre-game with the scorer wont change the fact that the scorer screwed up.

you dont think they know that they have to record all the fouls, points, running score, timeouts, etc. even at freshman level games the scorer knows what needs to be done.

All i do before the game is identify the home book and tell him/her if there is any issues with the book have get our attention and it needs to be resolved ASAP.

Do you mean to tell me you look at the book in between all quarters and count up all the fouls and score and then check the visiting book as well and compare. I highly doubt your answer will be yes to that?

All you can do is ask the book -- is everything right -- if both books are sitting together -- Do you 2 agree on the book? they say yes you move on. Its not our job to dissect the book every available minute -- we dont have the luxury nor the time.

what happens if you check the score and its right with 1 minute to go -- and this happens in the last minute. nothing can prevent what happened from happening except maybe having a visitors book as well. The officials messed up the rules application they were not responsible for the actual F'ck up in the book.

[Nevadaref]

From the article it seems that two huge mistakes in applying the rules were made. The officials screwed up this one:

2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 10: The score is tied at the end of regulation time. During the intermission between the fourth quarter and the beginning of the overtime period, the official scorer advises the referee that A1's three-point goal earlier in the fourth quarter was recorded in the scorebook improperly as a two-point goal. The referee verifies the mistake. RULING: The game is over and Team A has won. Since the ball had not yet become live in the overtime period, it need not be played. (2-11-11; 5-3; 5-7-4)

----------------

The scorer failed to do his prescribed duties so therefore botched these rules:

RULE 2
SECTION 11 SCORER'S DUTIES
The scorer shall:
...
ART. 4 . . . Record the field goals made, the free throws made and missed, and keep a running summary of the points scored.
...
ART. 11 . . . Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul, each charged time-out, and end of each quarter and extra period, notifying the referee at once of any discrepancy. If the mistake cannot be found, the referee shall accept the record of the official scorebook, unless he/she has knowledge which permits him/her to decide otherwise. If the discrepancy is in the score and the mistake is not resolved, the referee shall accept the progressive team totals of the official scorebook. A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score. The scorebook of the home team shall be the official book, unless the referee rules otherwise. The official scorebook shall remain at the scorer's table throughout the game, including all intermissions.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by iref4him

1) pre-game talk with the scorer and timer. Their responsibilities. Letting the scorer know that the running score is very important.

The reality, at least in the games I've had scorekeeper trouble in, is that the table crews who are going to do a good job are there and available to pregame with. The ones who are going to give you trouble are nowhere to be found until just before the game starts. And even then they will refuse to admit that this is the first time they've ever kept score/run the clock.