Coach's question

[RoyalsCoach]

I come to this site almost daily and have really learned alot. Unlike like most coaches I love to study the rules and feel pretty confident in my knowledge. My question involves incorrect application of the rules. How do I handle these during a game and after the game? Is there any hope during the game? During a game can I get another official to give the incorrect official additional information ( correct rule) and have the call changed? This happens all of the time on balls tipped out of bounds. One official helps another. After the game should I just let it drop and have the official continue to use an incorrect rule or should I approach the official?

So far this year I have had :
1.a five second closely guarded in the back court

2.an opponent call time out during a pass and been told this is legal because there is team possession during a pass

3.twice been told you cannot be the first to touch the ball back in bounds when you deflect the ball and your momentum carries you out of bound.

4. I have been told I cannot yell foul at the end of the game or it will be an intentional foul.

5. During the captains meeting been told a prewrap in the girls hair must be the same color. This was a month after the NFHS and the state of Illinois had made a clarificaton.

These are just a few I can think of at this time.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by RoyalsCoach

I come to this site almost daily and have really learned alot. Unlike like most coaches I love to study the rules and feel pretty confident in my knowledge.

This is good!!

My question involves incorrect application of the rules. How do I handle these during a game and after the game?

You handle this diligently. During a game can I get another official to give the incorrect official additional information ( correct rule) and have the call changed?

 No!!

This happens all of the time on balls tipped out of bounds. One official helps another.
After the game should I just let it drop and have the official continue to use an incorrect rule or should I approach the official? The game is over leave it alone.

So far this year I have had :
1.a five second closely guarded in the back court Not good

2.an opponent call time out during a pass and been told this is legal because there is team possession during a pass
Who is passing the ball they are or you? If they it is correct.
3.twice been told you cannot be the first to touch the ball back in bounds when you deflect the ball and your momentum carries you out of bound. 4. I have been told I cannot yell foul at the end of the game or it will be an intentional foul.
You have to ensure you players are taught properly on how to foul. Although, they me go for the ball it can be deemed intentional.
5. During the captains meeting been told a prewrap in the girls hair must be the same color. This was a month after the NFHS and the state of Illinois had made a clarificaton.

These are just a few I can think of at this time.

I hope this helps

[swkansasref33]

Originally Posted by RoyalsCoach

I come to this site almost daily and have really learned alot. Unlike like most coaches I love to study the rules and feel pretty confident in my knowledge. My question involves incorrect application of the rules. How do I handle these during a game and after the game? Is there any hope during the game? During a game can I get another official to give the incorrect official additional information ( correct rule) and have the call changed? This happens all of the time on balls tipped out of bounds. One official helps another. After the game should I just let it drop and have the official continue to use an incorrect rule or should I approach the official?

So far this year I have had :
1.a five second closely guarded in the back court

2.an opponent call time out during a pass and been told this is legal because there is team possession during a pass

3.twice been told you cannot be the first to touch the ball back in bounds when you deflect the ball and your momentum carries you out of bound.

4. I have been told I cannot yell foul at the end of the game or it will be an intentional foul.

5. During the captains meeting been told a prewrap in the girls hair must be the same color. This was a month after the NFHS and the state of Illinois had made a clarificaton.

These are just a few I can think of at this time.

1. Whoever called this obviously needs to read 9.8 Art. 10 on pg. 58 of the Fed. Rule book for the '06-'07 season.

Art. 1... A player shall not while closely guarded:
a. In his/her frontcourt, hold the ball for five seconds or dribble the ball for five seconds.
b. In his/her frontcourt, control the ball for five seconds in an area enclosed by screening teammates.

2. Page 42 in the Case Book states
5.8.3 Situation D: A1 or A2 requests a time-out: (a) while airborne A1 is holding the ball; (b) while A1’s throw-in is in flight toward A2; or (c) when the ball is on the floor at A1’s disposal for a throw-in.

Ruling: The request is granted in (a) and (c), but denied in (b), as there is no player control while the ball is loose between players.

3. This is true as far as I know. You cannot be the FIRST person to touch the ball inbounds after you have stepped OOB. I cannot find the rule, and I am sure someone else will, or else they will correct me if I am wrong.

4. In the Case Book, on page 26
4.19.3 Situation D: Late in the fourth quarter Team B is trailing by six points. Team B's head coach begins to yell to his or her players to "foul, foul, foul!" B1 responds by (a) grabbing A1 from behind, or (b) reaching for the ball but illegally contacting A1 on the arm.

Ruling: In (a), an intentional foul shall be called. In (b), a common foul shall be called as B1 was making a legitimate attempt to "play the ball."
Comment: Fouling near the end of a game is an acceptable coaching and playing strategy. Officials must determine if a foul is intentional by judging the fouling act itself, not whether or not the coach instructed a player to perform the act.

5. As far as this one goes, In Kansas, our Area Assignor told us they are not required to be the same color. Im pretty sure he said they could be any color, but I'm not 100% on it, so don't quote me on it.


As far as the OOB balls go, I will allow a coach to POLITELY ask me if my partner might have had a better look, and if they haven't been arguing every little call throughout the night, I will usually oblige and ask my partner if he saw clearly who the ball last touched. As far as letting stuff drop, you shouldn't bring it up after the 2nd DEAD BALL following the occurrence, because after the 2nd dead ball, NO official may correct an error, thus, all you will be doing is irritating the official and possibly earning a Tech and be forced to sit the rest of the game. Those are my thoughts, and others may not agree.

[budjones05]

So far this year I have had :
1.a five second closely guarded in the back court-You have every right to be upset with this rule. a closely guared situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his/her team's frontcourt. If you live in Missouri, this is a protestable rule.

2.an opponent call time out during a pass and been told this is legal because there is team possession during a pass. Rule 4-12-2 through 6 states a team is in control of the ball when a player of a team is in control while a live ball is being passed among teammates and during an interrupted dribble(ART 2) Team control continues intil a. the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal; b an opponent secures control; c, the ball becomes dead (ART 3) while the ball remains live a loose ball always remains control of the teamwhos player last had control , unless it is a try or tap for goal. (ART 4) Team control does not exist during a jump ball or the touching of a rebound, but is reestablished when a player secures control. (ART 5) Neither team control nor player control exists during a deab ball, throw-in, jump ball, or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

3.twice been told you cannot be the first to touch the ball back in bounds when you deflect the ball and your momentum carries you out of bound. Rule 9-3-1 and 2 A player shall not caus the ball to go out of bounds(ART 1) and A player shall not leave the floor for an unauthorized reason.( ARt 2)

4. I have been told I cannot yell foul at the end of the game or it will be an intentional foul. Rule 4-17-19 An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul which neutralizes an opponents obvious advantageous postion, Contract away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO STOP OR KEEP THE CLOCK FROM STARTING, shall be intentional. Intentionals fouls may or may nnot be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent

5. During the captains meeting been told a prewrap in the girls hair must be the same color. This was a month after the NFHS and the state of Illinois had made a clarificaton. ...What is a prewrap? If it is some type of a sweatband, headwear or head decorations, then it must meet the following guidelines: headbands and sweatbands must be white or similar in color to the torso of the jersey and must be the same color for each iteam and all participants. Only one item is permitted on the head and on each wrist. Items must be mositure-absorbing, nonabrasive and unaorned. Headbans may bea maximum of 2 inches......Rubber/cloth (elastic) bands may be used to control hair. Head decorations, except those specified above, are prohibited.

These are just a few I can think of at this time.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by budjones05

Rule 4-12-2 through 6 states a team is in control of the ball when....

Team control isn't relevant for a timeout request. "Player control" must be in place for a timeout to be granted during a live ball. The only exception to this is when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower during a throwin, the coach of the throwin team may also request a timeout. During a pass, while team control is still present, a timeout may not be granted. If it was just team control, then a timeout could be granted during an interrupted dribble. Or a team could call timeout after the ball flies back to the backcourt to avoid the backcourt violation.

Originally Posted by budjones05

Rule 9-3-1 and 2 A player shall not caus the ball to go out of bounds(ART 1) and A player shall not leave the floor for an unauthorized reason.( ARt 2)

Again, not relevant. A player whose momentum carries her OOB (this is considered an authorized reason) may come back in and be the first to touch the ball. It's the refs who call this incorrectly who perpetuate this myth.

Originally Posted by budjones05

...What is a prewrap?

Prewrap is the stuff they put on underneath athletic tape to prevent the tape from sticking to the skin. NFHS has specifically stated it's allowed and color is not an issue.

Coach, you're probably not going to get anywhere with these during a game, unfortunately. Your only viable recourse would probably be through your state association or through your AD to the assigners of your area. Missed rules should be addressed, but coaches aren't going to have any luck during a game.
At best, you might want to suggest they check the rule when they get home that night. It might work, if you do it politely enough. Don't be too surprised, though, if the response costs you the coaching box.

[Snake~eyes]

Wow, even in this thread there are several officials who wrote incorrrect rulingsf or the 5 plays listed. Regardless, the officials were wrong in all 5 plays.

[mplagrow]

By now, coach, you surely realize that not all officials will always call perfect games. And while you are correct on all five counts, it will be difficult to get the refs to get together an confer on a call without using a time-out to do so. By the time you have a quarter break or dead ball to discuss it, it will likely be too late to reverse it. Personally, when I coach, I usually deal with whatever mistakes are made by the officials and try to deal more with the mistakes made by my players. I have a little more control over that. Although, I can think of two times in about 8 years of coaching basketball that I got calls reversed. One was three seconds in the lane while the ball was in the backcourt (it was actually called on my opponent and I set the ref straight). The other was three seconds in the lane while shots were attempted. The ref had blown it dead, and my player made the shot, but they decided to award us the ball at the baseline instead of counting the basket.

Oh, and those were 8th grade games, not JV or V, thank God!

However, I wouldn't hesitate to talk to the refs at the half or after the game and tell them your understanding of the rule. Perhaps you can prevent them from making that mistake in the future. And certainly share it with your AD and/or assignor.

[JRutledge]

What level were these games? I also live in Illinois and it will depend on what level it was to how this could be reported.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by RoyalsCoach

I come to this site almost daily and have really learned alot. Unlike like most coaches I love to study the rules and feel pretty confident in my knowledge. My question involves incorrect application of the rules. How do I handle these during a game and after the game? Is there any hope during the game? During a game can I get another official to give the incorrect official additional information ( correct rule) and have the call changed? This happens all of the time on balls tipped out of bounds. One official helps another. After the game should I just let it drop and have the official continue to use an incorrect rule or should I approach the official?

So far this year I have had :
1.a five second closely guarded in the back court

2.an opponent call time out during a pass and been told this is legal because there is team possession during a pass

3.twice been told you cannot be the first to touch the ball back in bounds when you deflect the ball and your momentum carries you out of bound.

4. I have been told I cannot yell foul at the end of the game or it will be an intentional foul.

5. During the captains meeting been told a prewrap in the girls hair must be the same color. This was a month after the NFHS and the state of Illinois had made a clarificaton.

These are just a few I can think of at this time.

You've already been given several answers on here. Unfortunately, some were correct but there were also mistakes in them. You are wise to question each situation as your beliefs are correct.

#1. No 5 count until in the front cout.

#2. The timeout should not be granted unless the requesting team is either holding or dribbling the ball. It should NOT be granted when the pass is in the air.

#3. The only time this hold true is for a throwin. After a deflection, any player, including the one who went OOB and returned, may touch the ball.

#4. This was once correct but the NFHS reversed itself and said that fouls should be judged on the action, not the instruction.

#5. Again, you are correct. Prewrap has no color restrictions.

Now, as to how to deal with them. Probably not much you can do on most of them except smile and move on. For the refs that don't know the rules, they're not likely to believe you.

[MadCityRef]

I recommend having your AD pass along your misadventures to the assignor. You can also contact the IHSA with these items via e-mail. There is a bulletin posted and updated in the officals' center part of the web site we can view.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by RoyalsCoach

I come to this site almost daily and have really learned alot. Unlike like most coaches I love to study the rules and feel pretty confident in my knowledge. My question involves incorrect application of the rules. How do I handle these during a game and after the game? Is there any hope during the game? During a game can I get another official to give the incorrect official additional information ( correct rule) and have the call changed? This happens all of the time on balls tipped out of bounds. One official helps another. After the game should I just let it drop and have the official continue to use an incorrect rule or should I approach the official?

So far this year I have had :
1.a five second closely guarded in the back court

In Washington, by state adoption, we have a 30 second clock in girls' games and a five second closely guarded on a held ball in both front court and back court.

[rainmaker]

Coach, you're not going to win much, if anything during the game. I completely understand your frustration, and I sympathize, but the reality is, there's not much you can gain. In order to help that particular official (the errant one) improve overall, you might mention to the better partner, at some neutral point in the game if that exists, that it could be beneficial for said better partner to later discuss the 3 second rules with the less experienced one. Or if you see refs consistently misapplying or misunderstanding one particular rule, a word to the assignor or the association could be helpful, again in the long run.

[RoyalsCoach]

I wasn't looking for rulings. I was just pointing out situations were I new the correct rule but the officials did not. It was kind of interesting that even here I got incorrect interpretations. By the way this was girls frosh/soph but are the same officials that do the varsity game following.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RoyalsCoach

I wasn't looking for rulings. I was just pointing out situations were I new the correct rule but the officials did not. It was kind of interesting that even here I got incorrect interpretations. By the way this was girls frosh/soph but are the same officials that do the varsity game following.

Well that depends on where you live. And to be frank it might even depend on the gender of your games. In Illinois it is very common across the state to give less experienced officials girl's varsity games. I know officials that cannot get a sophomore boy's game, but can work a lot of girl's varsity games. So there could be many dynamics to why you have had officials that do not know the rules. I can tell you as a primarily varsity official, when I work a lower level game, I rarely work with another varsity official. I just had someone joke with me on Saturday that me and another official worked together (who also works varsity primarily and is a 20 year official) was "talked into" working a freshman boy's games at the last minute. So just working a varsity game in itself does not mean you have arrived or the most knowledgeable officials around. Hell, I know college officials that do not know many rules. What does that say?

Peace

[Ref in PA]

"I come to this site almost daily and have really learned alot. Unlike like most coaches I love to study the rules and feel pretty confident in my knowledge. My question involves incorrect application of the rules. How do I handle these during a game and after the game? Is there any hope during the game? During a game can I get another official to give the incorrect official additional information ( correct rule) and have the call changed? This happens all of the time on balls tipped out of bounds. One official helps another. After the game should I just let it drop and have the official continue to use an incorrect rule or should I approach the official?"

Many have responded to the specific situations but have not addressed you specific questions in the opening paragraph.

"How do I handle these during a game and after the game? Is there any hope during the game?"

There is almost no chance of getting a call reversed by an official during the game when the error is pointed out by a coach. Even as one official to another on a crew there is no guarantee an official will reverse a rule interpretation. Sometimes those questions are resolved in the locker room by consulting the rule book after a bet has been made. So, my answer to you is that you are stuck with the call until the end of the game, just as you are stuck with the refs until the end of the game.

My suggestion is that you contact the assignor and make sure you have your facts straight. I recently saw a game where Team B was down 3 points with under a minute to play. A1 inbounded the ball after a made basket by B. B1 deflected the ball, which hit the bottom of the backboard and fell down beside the basket. B1 picked up the ball and scored a layup. The lead ref at the far end of the floor blew the play dead, disallowed the basket and claimed the ball was oob. When B coach asked for an explanation of what was going on, she was given a "T". I was close enough to feel I had a good view of all the action really could not see/hear anything out of the ordinary done by Coach B. She knew I was a ref in the crowd and asked me what could be done. My answer to her is my answer to you.

Your only recourse at this point is to contact the assignor, send game film, and hopefully further instruction will be given to those refs.