This never happen to me before--What would you do?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Rut,

I'm not trying to badger you, but I'm really curious about where you draw the line on going to your partner when you feel like they missed a call? Traveling calls? Fouls?

If I went to a partner that I trusted in a situation like this, I think the first thing they would say is, "what the hell are you doing?"

I posted this here with the full understanding that people would disagree or agree with what I did. I also posted this because I was conflicted about a situation that I have never been involved in.

Secondly I am sure there would be officials that would be upset if I or any official came to them. There are a lot of officials that are stubborn no matter what information you give them. I have been told even in playoff games to basically “go away” only to later have the calling official realize they should have taken the advice.

I am also not in this camp I need to save my partner from all calls or even most calls. I rarely give my partner's information other than when it is widely accepted. Even if I am not sure about an out of bounds call, I do not come in and say a word when there is any doubt. This situation there was no doubt. I also would never correct a call if there was mostly judgment involved. If my partner called a traveling because of the pivot foot moved or did not move, I would not ever come in and give any information about something like that. So for me there is a clear line. Also my partner in my opinion (and what he said afterwards) was clearly screened to the defender and his arm and did not see why the player came back to the floor with the ball. If he had a better look or I had my look, even if I think it was the wrong call because of what I thought I saw, I would have let it go. So for me all the elements fit entirely for me to even entertain giving information. I was 100% sure I saw the play better, my partner was completely screened and everyone with a similar look could tell the defender put his hands all over the ball and at the very least blocked the shot which was clearly seen on tape if you talk to IowaMike.

The following day I had a game and I was the new Lead and administering a throw-in. I still had the ball in my hand and was standing next to the thrower and one of the offensive team members on the floor throws an elbow to the mid-section of the defender and my partner who is the Center Official calls a foul. Now I knew if he was going to call a foul it had to be a technical because it was very clear that I was still holding the ball. So I ran to my partner and told him we have to give a T because the ball was still dead. He accepted the information and called a T for the contact.

In both situations I just gave information when I was 100% sure what took place. Now if I had to do it all over again, I would have blown my whistle for what I clearly saw and I would have never come here and asked about it, because it is not uncommon to have a double whistle and not have the same call but go with what happen first or what was right to call. The part I am most upset by is that I did not have a whistle. I know we sometimes like to say “always” and “never” but this situation for me shows why you have to be careful when using those terms. This was likely a once in a career situation for me. I would have rather not had this situation at all.

Peace

[tomegun]

I think a lot of people are trying to pile on. Not only do I not agree, because Rut is admittedly conflicted, but I think it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. If everyone that disagrees with what Rut did do NOT follow the "get the call right" mantra then OK. But, I would bet some that have piled on will say "get the call right" as an excuse to watch the ball all over the court.

Isn't it obvious that Rut is even questioning if this crossed the line? I don't recall him ever saying this is what he did, he knows it was right and that is all there is to it. IMO, he posted because he wasn't 100% sure about the call.

I will be ready and waiting to pounce on some posters if/when they do something that is questionable. But then again, we know some wouldn't even post anything they did wrong in the first place.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I think a lot of people are trying to pile on. Not only do I not agree, because Rut is admittedly conflicted, but I think it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. If everyone that disagrees with what Rut did do NOT follow the "get the call right" mantra then OK. But, I would bet some that have piled on will say "get the call right" as an excuse to watch the ball all over the court.

Isn't it obvious that Rut is even questioning if this crossed the line? I don't recall him ever saying this is what he did, he knows it was right and that is all there is to it. IMO, he posted because he wasn't 100% sure about the call.

I will be ready and waiting to pounce on some posters if/when they do something that is questionable. But then again, we know some wouldn't even post anything they did wrong in the first place.

The one thing nobody's picked up on is Rut's posting history -- Rut is clearly not someone who looks all over the court and runs around trying to overturn calls.

If I'm working with a regular partner whose history I know (and he's like Rut) and he come running in, well, then I'm going to listen.

Too many black-and-white answers in this thread. Officiating is much more gray in nature.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Too many black-and-white answers in this thread. Officiating is much more gray in nature.

Which is exactly why I didn't post. Without being there and having some kind of feel for the game, situation, and/or my partners, I really don't know what I'd do.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I posted this here with the full understanding that people would disagree or agree with what I did. I also posted this because I was conflicted about a situation that I have never been involved in.

I am also not in this camp I need to save my partner from all calls or even most calls. I rarely give my partner's information other than when it is widely accepted. Even if I am not sure about an out of bounds call, I do not come in and say a word when there is any doubt. This situation there was no doubt. I also would never correct a call if there was mostly judgment involved.
Peace

Thanks Rut,
That answers my question.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Thanks Rut,
That answers my question.

You are welcome.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

The one thing nobody's picked up on is Rut's posting history -- Rut is clearly not someone who looks all over the court and runs around trying to overturn calls.

If I'm working with a regular partner whose history I know (and he's like Rut) and he come running in, well, then I'm going to listen.

Too many black-and-white answers in this thread. Officiating is much more gray in nature.

I agree with this and JR's post.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I agree with this and JR's post.

I'm not trying to hijack the thread (although it seems to be winding down), but I had an IW last night, which was the first I can remember in 20 years, although I wouldn't swear I've never had one. Ball was originally on the cylinder and then a hand came sideways through the net and hit the ball. Problem was, the ball fell off the cylinder before this happened and the hand clearly did not go up through the basket. When the ball was hit, it was below the rim.

I was too quick on the whistle -- it was 2-person and we were in transition. I didn't hesitate -- I stepped in and told my partner we had an IW with no team control --> AP.

Then I told the benches and the table. Shooting team coach wanted BI and then said after my explanation, "well, why not a foul on the play?" Other team said they had possession of the ball -- they did get the rebound, but not until after the whistle. Both arguments were pretty half-hearted and we got the game started quickly.

Four player technicals last night. Double technical on a held ball -- we closed quickly as the play on a loose ball was aggressive, but the players involved started mouthing at each other. Partner got a technical on the one player, but I saw both yapping and called the double T. I figured this would send a message.

Home team stopped yapping, but the visiting team didn't. We had two more technicals on visiting players trying to drive through 2-3 players hoping to get bailed out. When they didn't get bailed out, they turned to the official, gestured, and shouted at the official -- and got technicals for their troubles. One was on one of the participants in the held ball double technical, so he'll get to sit a game.

Things are starting to go up a notch in intensity with a month left in the season.

[JRutledge]

I ejected a freshman coach last night if that makes you feel better. It was a double header and I gave him one T in the first game, which I started all by myself because my partner had gone to the wrong school. The coach started complaining even when I was by myself about illegal screens and "over the back" calls. Then when my partner shows up, he turns on the intensity and says more and I T him.

Then in the second game he does not learn his lesson and continues to yell across the court. As I give him the first T he still runs his mouth and I am warning him to let it go as I am reporting, I just say screw it after another comment and dumb his behind.

I have not ejected a basketball coach since my first year and that was about 10 seasons ago. Fun times were had by all.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I stepped in and told my partner we had an IW with no team control --> AP.

Then I told the benches and the table. Shooting team coach wanted BI and then said after my explanation, "well, why not a foul on the play?" Other team said they had possession of the ball -- they did get the rebound, but not until after the whistle. Both arguments were pretty half-hearted and we got the game started quickly.

What can the coaches really say? You admitted that you screwed up. You didn't compound your screw-up by doing something that was wrong rules-wise and that would have ended up pissing one of the coaches off. You did exactly what should be done imo.

Btw, one of the key things to note from Rich's post is the last sentence-i.e. re-starting the game quickly. That's great advice for all of these types of situations. Make your explanation, and if they want to continue the discussion, tell 'em to see you after the game. Usually, they'll have forgotten about it by then anyway. Get the ball back into play immediately and git-r-done.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My first thought was to go with an inadvertent whistle and give the ball back to the home team because the shooter had possession when my partner made the call. As I was talking to my partner I happened to look towards the table (I was table side on this play) and noticed that the home team had the arrow. Then I suggested that we just go with a jump ball because ultimately I feel this was an easy way out and the play fit a jump ball under NF rules because technically the shooter was prevented from releasing the ball. Well my two partners agreed with my suggestion and I turned around and gave the jump ball signal toward the table.

First, I think that you did the right thing in attempting to get the play right. Your partner needed some help after making a call on a play that he couldn't truly see (I believe that he should have not had a whistle in that case.) and you gave him a way out. However, I do have some aspects of how this was handled that I question.

What I underlined is probably the correct call by the rules. Why didn't you stick with that? As is often said, your first thought is usually right.

I don't like what I put in red. Would you have wanted to go with a held ball if the arrow favored the other team? Which team has the arrow shouldn't be a factor in your decision. You should have just stuck with trying to get the play right, not take an easy way out.

I would have let my partner who made the original call turn around and signal the held ball. It was his call to change.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I even made sure that I let our assignor know (who was a Big Ten Official much earlier in his career and we all work college basketball for) I was the person that insisted on the Jump Ball option even though I did not make a signal.

I'm a bit confused now. I thought that you said in your first post that you did give the signal. Or do you mean that you didn't give that signal on the play, but only after the conversation with your partners?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

First, I think that you did the right thing in attempting to get the play right. Your partner needed some help after making a call on a play that he couldn't truly see (I believe that he should have not had a whistle in that case.) and you gave him a way out. However, I do have some aspects of how this was handled that I question.

What I underlined is probably the correct call by the rules. Why didn't you stick with that? As is often said, your first thought is usually right.

I think it is debatable at this point if that would have been the right call. The reason I thought of an inadvertent whistle is mainly the fact the ball was loose at one point before the player came back to the floor. That still does not mean that there is not the possibility of a jump ball or that a jump ball was not the right call. I also have not seen the tape and cannot tell you how right or wrong the call is. I will say that I do have on tape a game earlier this year where I called a jump ball similar to the OP I described. The difference in this play and the play that I actually have on tape is the play is the fact the ball never came loose in the play I have actually seen.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I don't like what I put in red. Would you have wanted to go with a held ball if the arrow favored the other team? Which team has the arrow shouldn't be a factor in your decision. You should have just stuck with trying to get the play right, not take an easy way out.

First of all I have no idea what I would have done if the arrow was pointed the other way. I did not have that as an option. Also my decision was not based solely on the arrow. It was a factor, but not THE FACTOR. I am no more sure about this call as I would any call tough call I have not seen the tape on yet. Now if I am not sure, how can anyone else say it was the right thing to do either way without seeing the actual tape?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I would have let my partner who made the original call turn around and signal the held ball. It was his call to change.

I do not completely disagree with this statement. I was not doing it for any particular reason other than we were talking for quite a long time. I was the closest to the table and I turned to the table after all 3 of us were talking. It was more of a reaction after we kept talking and repeated what we were going to do. In a perfect world I would not have signaled at all after the conversation. I did and we moved on. I was actually expecting the assignor to make a comment about this and he did not. As I stated earlier, he just wanted to know what the conversation was about.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'm a bit confused now. I thought that you said in your first post that you did give the signal. Or do you mean that you didn't give that signal on the play, but only after the conversation with your partners?

This thread is very long and I am not sure what context you got that comment out of (sorry I do not feel like reading back at this time ) but I believe I was referring to not signaling on the initial call (when my partner blew his whistle. I was not referring to after the conversation.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Rut, thanks for sharing your experience of this play with us. I'm sure that all have taken something from it.

I wasn't there nor have I seen a tape, and thus I can't make a solid determination which calls were right or wrong. All that I can say is that it sounds as if whichever decision the crew finally went with (IW or held ball) following the conference was a better call than the original traveling violation due to what you clearly saw from your angle.

The only thing that I strongly disagree with is that you have stated that which way the arrow was pointing was a factor in what decision you made. I think that hurts the integrity of the call. For me this is similar to other factors that should remain outside the purview of any individual call that we attempt to get correct--such as who is winning, which team is the home team, which coach has a better career record, which team is higher ranked, etc. Just my opinion.

My point about who changed the call becomes relatively minor after a long discussion has taken place. By that time most people have probably forgotten who made the original call anyway. It is just a respect thing between partners as no one wants to have it look like another official is coming in and overruling them. Since you are certainly sensitive to this part of officiating, I'm sure that you handled it with class and that your partner was fine with what you did.

[Ron Giacoma]

My first thought is your partner made a call so, find your next three-man position go to that spot and keep calling in your area. *I also think that the ball came loose and the "control" is lost so I won't blow my whistle. Your partner saw the play differently . MOVE ON. I have watched many, many games where EVERYONE saw something differently ie. fans, coaches, players, janitors, siblings, ADs, commentators, parents, and yes co-officials. Let it go .......