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Thu Dec 16, 1999, 11:18pm
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: Last night, I had one of those weird happenings that seem to be following me lately. Here's what happened.
: A1 to inbound to start 3rd quarter. Inbound pass goes OOB untouched. I go to scorer to explain that, by rule, if the inbounding team violates on an AP throw-in, they lose the ball and the arrow - team B now gets arrow. Coaches both listen, no problems. : A few minutes later, there is a tie-up. B1 to inbound due to AP arrow. Yep, you guessed it. After the ball was handed to B1, but prior to him releasing the ball, B2 pushes off A2 right in front of my partner. Partner correctly calls a personal foul on B2 (since the ball became live when at disposal of B1, contact need not be flagrant or intentional to be called - in case you were thinking that). We were not in the bonus, so throw-in for team A due to the foul. : I bet you can guess what's coming. Now I go over to the scorer and explain that because the inbound was not completed, team A gets the ball for the throw-in due to the foul, but team B gets to keep the arrow. : Coach A virtually explodes. "How can that be?", he bellows like a stuck pig. "You can't have it both ways!", he rants. I calmly explain that the standard situation when the inbound is not completed on an AP throw-in is for the inbounding team to keep the arrow, but there is an exception for when the team violates. The exception does not apply when they foul. : Again he yells, "How can that be?" He starts to sound like a broken record (for those of you who were born after 1980, we used to have these things called "records" - they were - oh, never mind). : "Coach", I tell him, "I'm just the messenger. And before you ask - YES, I AM SURE!!!" : "But that's not fair", he wails. : "Coach", I reply, "this is basketball. You want justice, call Judge Judy." : BTW - his team lost by two. : I love this game. 
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Fri Dec 17, 1999, 02:26pm
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Cause the coaches don't know the #@$!* rules! And they write the rules. The main reason a team doesn't lose the arrow on a foul during a AP throw-in it is a huge advantage to the defensive team to foul during a AP throw-in to get the arrow switched.
Sounds like you handled the situation correctly by taking care of everything right away and not waiting until the next held ball to try and remember what happened previously then getting in more trouble. And you handled the coach as best as you could.
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Fri Dec 17, 1999, 10:41pm
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quote: Then what's the logic behind the arrow not changing if the offensive team fouls prior to the ball being inbounded? Is committing a violation more serious and should be punished more strict than committing a foul? Or is this one of those things that don't make sense but they're in the rule book anyway?
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Sun Dec 19, 1999, 11:29am
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The big thing to remember is when the arrow changes and why the ball is being put in play. The arrow changes when the ball is released on the throw in. So in case "A" The arrow cahnges when the ball is released and then put back into play as a result of the OOB. If a foul occurs before the release, the arrow does not change, but the reason the ball is put back into play is then because of a foul, therefore the arrow does not change. Not at all confusing when put in that perspective.
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Mon Dec 20, 1999, 10:22am
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quote: Just to clarify -- the arrow changes when the throw-in is complete, not when it's released. So, a foul while the ball is in the air (e.g., B2 holds A2 who is attempting to catch the throw in pass before A2 touches the ball), would not result in the arrow changing.
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Mon Dec 20, 1999, 07:24pm
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When did A violate, I don't believe a throw-in that goes directly out of bounds without touching any player is a violation. Give B the ball out of bounds at the division line, but don't give B the arrow; it should remain pointed towards A's bench.
the throw-in did not end, because it didn't touch a player inbounds.
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Mon Dec 20, 1999, 07:36pm
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quote: You don't?!?
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Fri Dec 24, 1999, 01:37am
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The possesion arrow changes when the throw-in ends. The throw-in ended when the ball went OOB. thus the arrow changes
quote:
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Mon Dec 27, 1999, 01:21am
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I stand corrected!! First of all, when the ball goes directly out of bounds without touching a player - a throw-in violation has occurred. Technically the throw-in has not ended as it was never "touched by a player in bounds" as the definition for when a throw-in ends reads in the rule book.
Unfortunately, as happens many times, I misinterpreted a rule simply because I was not aware of all the throw-in procedures. So, GIVE THE BALL TO B AND CHANGE THE ARROW!
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Mon Dec 27, 1999, 01:48am
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quote: Your statement, "Technically the throw-in has not ended as it was never 'touched by a player in bounds' is not altogether true. A throw-in ends when there is a violation by the throwing team REGARDLESS of whether the ball has been inbounded yet and/or touched another player. (See Rule 6-3-4) As soon as the throw-in team violates, the arrow is switched to B and they are now entitled to a throw-in at the same spot. As soon they inbound the ball, the arrow switches back to A for the next AP situation. So much for a violation, however is EITHER team FOULS during an AP throw-in, (as is stated in a message above) it does not cause the throw-in team to lost possession of the arrow. (Rule 6-3-5) Paul
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