This never happen to me before--What would you do?

[JRutledge]

Let me qualify my comments by first saying my partners in this game were great. I had a situation happen to me that I never have experienced in any varsity contest. I am not coming here like many to ***** or complain about my partners. The game we were working the other night was a real barn burner. This was a conference game between two teams that lead the conference at the moment. The game was close the entire game and the home team never had a lead more than 10 points. Most of the night they were trading baskets and the game always was in question. Well late in the second half we have a play that we talked about seriously afterwards.

I was the C and my partner was the T. One of the home players started to shoot a 3 point shot which was in the middle of the lane area above the top of the key. As the shooter goes up for the shot, the defender reaches in and puts his hands on the ball. Now I had probably a much better look considering the hand the defender used was in my clear view and I have a very clean look at this defense of the shot. The shooter was up in the air without bringing the ball up over his head because of the defender. As the shooter was in the air, the ball came loose and the shooter came back down with the ball. My partner has a whistle immediately and he calls a travel. Now from my point of view this was obviously the wrong call and part of the reason he might have not seen this as well as me, because he would not have seen the arm of the defender as he was kind of looking through the back as the shooter kind of turned his on the shoot attempt. Of course the crowd violently reacted negatively to the call and I immediately ran to him to give my partner some information. My first thought was to go with an inadvertent whistle and give the ball back to the home team because the shooter had possession when my partner made the call. As I was talking to my partner I happened to look towards the table (I was table side on this play) and noticed that the home team had the arrow. Then I suggested that we just go with a jump ball because ultimately I feel this was an easy way out and the play fit a jump ball under NF rules because technically the shooter was prevented from releasing the ball. Well my two partners agreed with my suggestion and I turned around and gave the jump ball signal toward the table. Neither coach said a word considering they were complaining most of the night. The assignor happened to be present and talked to us after the game. He did not seem to have a problem with what we did or the procedure.

Now my question is would you do the same thing if you were in my situation. If you would not do the same thing as I did on this call, why would you not?

If anyone reads many of my posts I am not in the “Get it right at all costs” camp. I tend to believe that my partners should be allowed to make calls that I may or may not agree with. Also would you have gone with the inadvertent whistle instead of the jump ball if you decided to give help?

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Let me qualify my comments by first saying my partners in this game were great. I had a situation happen to me that I never have experienced in any varsity contest. I am not coming here like many to ***** or complain about my partners. The game we were working the other night was a real barn burner. This was a conference game between two teams that lead the conference at the moment. The game was close the entire game and the home team never had a lead more than 10 points. Most of the night they were trading baskets and the game always was in question. Well late in the second half we have a play that we talked about seriously afterwards.

I was the C and my partner was the T. One of the home players started to shoot a 3 point shot which was in the middle of the lane area above the top of the key. As the shooter goes up for the shot, the defender reaches in and puts his hands on the ball. Now I had probably a much better look considering the hand the defender used was in my clear view and I have a very clean look at this defense of the shot. The shooter was up in the air without bringing the ball up over his head because of the defender. As the shooter was in the air, the ball came loose and the shooter came back down with the ball. My partner has a whistle immediately and he calls a travel. Now from my point of view this was obviously the wrong call and part of the reason he might have not seen this as well as me, because he would not have seen the arm of the defender as he was kind of looking through the back as the shooter kind of turned his on the shoot attempt. Of course the crowd violently reacted negatively to the call and I immediately ran to him to give my partner some information. My first thought was to go with an inadvertent whistle and give the ball back to the home team because the shooter had possession when my partner made the call. As I was talking to my partner I happened to look towards the table (I was table side on this play) and noticed that the home team had the arrow. Then I suggested that we just go with a jump ball because ultimately I feel this was an easy way out and the play fit a jump ball under NF rules because technically the shooter was prevented from releasing the ball. Well my two partners agreed with my suggestion and I turned around and gave the jump ball signal toward the table. Neither coach said a word considering they were complaining most of the night. The assignor happened to be present and talked to us after the game. He did not seem to have a problem with what we did or the procedure.

Now my question is would you do the same thing if you were in my situation. If you would not do the same thing as I did on this call, why would you not?

If anyone reads many of my posts I am not in the “Get it right at all costs” camp. I tend to believe that my partners should be allowed to make calls that I may or may not agree with. Also would you have gone with the inadvertent whistle instead of the jump ball if you decided to give help?

Peace

The ball was loose due to the block, so it seems like the right call to me. I'd be happy to go along with this if you had something I did not see.

[zebraman]

Sounds like it worked out fine for you. Personally, I wouldn't go to my partner on a call like that unless they asked me in. An obvious tipped ball sure, but not on a travel call. But that is just me. What you did worked for you.

[bigdogrunnin]

Was the defensive player still in contact with the ball too, or had he let go? I will have to look, but if the defensive player removes their hands from the ball and the offensive player returns to the floor while still holding the ball, then isn't this considered a traveling violation?

[blindzebra]

Actually what was the issue with giving the info and him going with the IW?

Why take the arrow away from the team because your partner thought he saw something that wasn't? Because what you described was a blocked shot and not a held ball under NFHS rules.

To me, if the coaches didn't take issue with the incorrect held ball changing the travel call, why would they take issue with the crew getting the play right, and your partner overruling himself?

[wildcatter]

Was the defensive player still in contact with the ball too, or had he let go? I will have to look, but if the defensive player removes their hands from the ball and the offensive player returns to the floor while still holding the ball, then isn't this considered a traveling violation?


I don't believe it matters:

Rule 4, Section 35, NCAA rulebook

A.R. 95. A1 jumps for a try for field goal. B1 jumps to defend against the try and (a) touches the ball before it leaves A1’s hand and A1 returns to the floor with the ball and the ball never loses contact with A1’s hand(s) or (b) the ball loses contact with A1’s hand(s), A1 retrieves the ball while in the air and returns to the floor in possession of the ball and begins to dribble or (c) after the ball touches the floor, A1 recovers the ball and begins to dribble. RULING: In (a), the official shall call a held ball. In (b) and (c), the play shall be legal. A1 has gained a new possession in both instances.

It seems that in this specific case, A1 has gained new posession. Even though his hands were not above his head, as the OP stated, he was going up for the shot.

In almost no cases would it be travelling, unless the defender did not touch the ball. Even if the shooter came down with the ball after 1) the defender had touched the ball in mid-air, 2) the ball never lost contact with the shooter's hand, and 3) regardless of whether or not the defender still had contact with the ball when the shooter came down - it would be a held ball.

As for the original post, there would have been no hurt in making the correct ruling, an inadvertant whistle, and going from POI (assuming the whistle came after the shooter recovered the ball) -- and awarding the shooter's team the ball without going AP. Especially when you were 100% that the defender made contact with the ball, and your partner agrees he might have missed it. Maybe not all coaches understand that a ref can't be 100% time all the time on the spot, and if they ride your partner for it, then WACK!

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

Was the defensive player still in contact with the ball too, or had he let go? I will have to look, but if the defensive player removes their hands from the ball and the offensive player returns to the floor while still holding the ball, then isn't this considered a traveling violation?

Continuous touch and return to floor = held ball.

Touch and ball comes loose = loss of player control, so nothing.

Touch and no loss of ball with return to floor = travel.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Of course the crowd violently reacted negatively to the call and I immediately ran to him to give my partner some information.

What the crowd reaction got to do with it? You're making it seem like because of this reaction is what prompted you to act. Not good officiating to challenge you partners call based on this.

My first thought was to go with an inadvertent whistle and give the ball back to the home team because the shooter had possession when my partner made the call.

Guaranteed, the opposing coach is not going to like that. Better get ready to throw a T his way.

As I was talking to my partner I happened to look towards the table (I was table side on this play) and noticed that the home team had the arrow. Then I suggested that we just go with a jump ball because ultimately I feel this was an easy way out

I like this, excellent observation, you got lucky but this is the only way you can safely get out of this stitch.

Well my two partners agreed with my suggestion and I turned around and gave the jump ball signal toward the table.

Here's where you errored. The original caller or the primary referee has to make this signal, not you.

Now my question is would you do the same thing if you were in my situation. If you would not do the same thing as I did on this call, why would you not?

Overall, I'm split on this one. I like the fact that you went in and got the right call. However, I'm a little concerned about your involvement in this game and it's outcome. You are there to officiate the game, therefore, your partner made a call from his primary, you didn't agree with it and based on the crowd reaction, you went and changed it. Are you going to do this everytime your partner misses a call in their primary? Or are you going to only do this in the big games?

My problem here is referee's are not perfect, players are not perfect. We're going to get some calls right, we're going to get some calls wrong and the coaches know that. We got a call from the primary area of an official, travel, I the coach benefited from this call. You go and change it. As a coach, that reeks to me. That sends the message that you have a personal involment in the game that might be more than just officiating, even if you are right. Let the chips fall where they may. Now we come down on the other end and have a similar play/travel and it goes against me, hey, come in and change this one too! My concern would be in this area.

Discuss this in the postgame, you blew that call, be better for the next time this happens.

Also would you have gone with the inadvertent whistle instead of the jump ball if you decided to give help?

Jump ball! Anything else and I begin to smell a rat. There's no I-W if your partner gave a traveling signal after blowing his whistle.

Isn't this fun being a referee?

[dave30]

Jump ball. If you went inadvertent whistle, it makes it look like you are overruling your partner. Jump ball makes it look like you just let him know the defender got on top of the ball to stop a shot release.

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not coming here like many to ***** or complain about my partners.

[rainmaker]

Jeff, my first thought was to call the jump ball before the shooter let go, so I think that part was great.

Would I have stepped in, given information, and come to the same arrangement? I don't know, but I wish I would.

[cmathews]

First let me start this by saying I wasn't there so I can't say what is right or wrong ... By rule I would say it should not have been a travel, but the Jump ball is hard to argue with. I am with Juulie, the best part of the situation is that you went to your partner to make sure he had all the information he needed....

[Rich]

Originally Posted by cmathews

First let me start this by saying I wasn't there so I can't say what is right or wrong ... By rule I would say it should have been a travel, but the Jump ball is hard to argue with. I am with Juulie, the best part of the situation is that you went to your partner to make sure he had all the information he needed....

The ball came loose. A1 lost possession of the ball. It CAN'T be a travel.

[cmathews]

missed a word this morning....need more coffee I guess LOL....it has been edited..

[Scrapper1]

If the ball came loose, how is it a held ball? I have no problem with going to my partner with the information, but I would have gone with the inadvertant whistle and not the arrow.