The "And 1"

[lukealex]

A foul is a foul, but not all contact is a foul. The shot being made or missed should not determine if contact should be a foul

[blindzebra]

It's dangerous to have a black and white philosophy on "and 1's", or anything else for that matter.

To me a made basket is only a small part of advantage/disadvantage in these situations:

What if the game is getting close to that line and not calling pretty good contact, just because the ball went in, keeps it on that slide into the crapper?

I've seen plenty of cases where a routine lay up turns into a Sportscenter highlight because of contact, IMO, that is gaining an advantage and the made shot means nothing.

This call is like any other call and it requires getting a feel for what needs to be an and 1, and what can be passed on, I just wouldn't use the shot going in as my measuring stick.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BEAREF

Or you will call a foul when the shot doesn't go in and NOTHING if the shot is made? A foul is foul...call it!

The shot going in (especially in the post) definitely will influence whether a foul is called at higher levels.

Sometimes we just don't know if there's a disadvantage until we see the whole picture, and that includes the shot. Slow whistles are all good, IMO.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I call solid contact that should not be ignored. I pass on minimal contact that didn't effect the play.

Essentially, call the obvious.

nothing more need be said !!!!

[Jimgolf]

I'm just going to add that if the defender hits the shooter near the elbow, the foul should be called regardless of whether the basket is made or not. Any shot made after the forearm is hit near the elbow is a miracle, and the defender should not be permitted to continue this defensive tactic without consequence. This is an attempt to cheat, pure and simple, and should not be condoned. Even the slightest of contact in this area can make a shot almost impossible to sink.

No rules reference, just my thoughts on the matter from someone who has witnessed coaches teach this reprehensible move. "Don't worry, the refs won't call it!"

[jeffpea]

I don't think you can wait to see if the shot goes in or not before you decide to call a foul or not (too much time elapses). I think the better way to judge the severity of contact is whether the offensive player continues the shooting motion relatively "freely" - that is to say: did he play thru the contact or did the contact significantly restrict the shooting motion?

You can't assume the contact made the shooter miss the shot (after all plenty of shots are missed when there is no contact at all).

[Junker]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

I don't think you can wait to see if the shot goes in or not before you decide to call a foul or not (too much time elapses). I think the better way to judge the severity of contact is whether the offensive player continues the shooting motion relatively "freely" - that is to say: did he play thru the contact or did the contact significantly restrict the shooting motion?

You can't assume the contact made the shooter miss the shot (after all plenty of shots are missed when there is no contact at all).

It depends on how you look at advantage disadvantage. Almost every D1 official I've heard or talked to at camps say to hold the whistle and see if the ball goes down. I'm not sure that is right for a HS game, but that's they way I was taught. I know I'm very patient with shooting foul calls.

[jmaellis]

New ref here, only doing youth BB for now, HS later. I've been trolling around this board for a couple of weeks and I'm a little confused (actually a lot confused depending on the rule) about some things, including advantage/disadvantage. Specifically relating to this thread, I'm wondering why an official would choose to ignore a shooting foul if the basket was made and yet call the same foul if the basket was not made.

As I understand some of the officials that have posted, they wouldn't call the foul because it didn't place the offended player at a disadvantage and/or didn't effect the outcome of the shot; and that the determination as to disadvantage or effect is solely based upon whether or not the ball ultimately went into the basket.

I don't understand this, so I'm hoping for further explanation. Is the philosophy of being at a “disadvantage” that a player is not at a disadvantage as long as the outcome of the play/shot is what that player intended to happen (such as a basket)? It doesn’t make sense that just because the player ultimately made the basked that he wasn’t necessarily put in a disadvantageous situation as the result of the foul.
It seems to me that just because the basket was made, it doesn't mean that the shooter was not placed at a disadvantage, it could just mean that the player overcame the disadvantage and made the basket and/or the disadvantage wasn’t so severe that it effected the ultimate outcome of the shot. Is an official required to judge how much of a disadvantage the foul caused and only call the foul if it crosses a certain threshold or resulted in an unintended outcome?

If the basis for calling a foul is whether or not the basket was made, a foul with a basket = no disadvantage and conversely, a foul without a basket = disadvantage. In a situation when there is a foul and then a missed shot how would the official determine whether or not the foul caused a disadvantage .. it may have been a shot that wouldn’t have gone in anyway, therefore the foul did not call a disadvantage and it is not called.

From a newbie perspective it doesn’t make sense to not call a foul simply/only because the offended player made the basket, when the same foul would have been called if the basket was not successful.


So, this is really my ultimate question. Should the basis upon which the official makes the decision to call (or not call) the foul be:

1. Whether of not the shooter was placed at a perceived disadvantage because of the foul; or
2. Whether or not the shooter achieved his intended goal (in this case a basket) in spite of the foul, whether or not the foul put the player at a disadvantage?


….. or should the foul be called because it was a violation of the rules and it really isn’t possible to truly determine whether or not it caused a disadvantage.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by FrankHtown

Not all contact is a foul.

No, it's not. But a foul is not determined by whether a round ball goes through a medal hoop or not. If I'm wrong, plus reference the rule so I can read it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Junker

It depends on how you look at advantage disadvantage. Almost every D1 official I've heard or talked to at camps say to hold the whistle and see if the ball goes down. I'm not sure that is right for a HS game, but that's they way I was taught. I know I'm very patient with shooting foul calls.

IOW, anytime you're watching a college game and the official calls a foul on a made basket, he's screwed up. Is that correct?

[just another ref]

I'm having a hard time following all this. A strong player can follow through and finish a shot with two people hanging on his arm sometimes. A player can miss an easy shot while being baaaarely bumped. (or not bumped at all)
In a nutshell, I don't see that the foul and whether the shot is good or not have anything to do with each other.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

So, this is really my ultimate question. Should the basis upon which the official makes the decision to call (or not call) the foul be:

1. Whether of not the shooter was placed at a perceived disadvantage because of the foul; or
2. Whether or not the shooter achieved his intended goal (in this case a basket) in spite of the foul, whether or not the foul put the player at a disadvantage?

Good questions.

Simply put: sometimes 1, sometimes 2, sometimes neither.



IMO this is all stuff you shouldn't worry all that much about putting in your games right now, concentrate on understanding the rules as written, making solid calls all the time, communicating well with your partner and maintaining good position.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by ref18

I'm just wondering what everyone else's philosophy is regarding calling a foul if the basket goes in.

Personally, the way I call it is that if the basket goes in, there's no disadvantage to the shooter, and I'm not calling anything unless the contact completely unnecessary, or I don't realize the ball's going in the hoop.

So, I'm wondering how many of you guys call it like this, and how many will give the shooter the extra shot?

Good question. I'm surprised at all the responses. I'm also surprised JR hasn't come in and stated what the rulebook says to do. That's where you want to start. What does the rulebook say? Also, it matters as to what level you are referring too. If you are referring to high school. I think you need to put air in the whistle more times than not on an And-1. However, there are other factors involved to me, more than just the ball going in or not. I think you also need to add in what the total team foul count is. If one team is way ahead in the foul count, I may just keep playing, but if the team that fouls is behind in the foul count. For ex: 9 - 1 team fouls, well they now have 2 team fouls. I would add this to the equation. Also, I would add to the equation the intensity level at this time in the game.

What I think will get you in trouble is a late whistle on an And-1. If the ball hangs on the rim or bounces around and you're waiting to see if it goes down and it rolls out, and you put air in the whistle, defense gets the rebound. Guaranteed the coach is gonna have some choice words for you and the crew on that one.

A good example I can share with you is related to the men (not college). I had a player come down the paint hard the other day, go up and slam it home while the defense went up hard to block. Major collision at the basket (I'm lead and I was right underneath it), dunk successful, play ball. He misses dunk, we're shooting two. Where I think I draw the difference here is the intent of the defense. Did the defense go to block (or play) the ball or they just tried to foul the player? Any contact to the head or face will be a foul at any level. Anything less, my judgement. This same play in college is a foul to me.

Hope this helps...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Old School

...... there are other factors involved to me, more than just the ball going in or not. I think you also need to add in what the total team foul count is.
What I think will get you in trouble is a late whistle on an And-1. If the ball hangs on the rim or bounces around and you're waiting to see if it goes down and it rolls out, and you put air in the whistle, defense gets the rebound. Guaranteed the coach is gonna have some choice words for you and the crew on that one.

So you're saying the team foul count is a factor in your next foul call?
And you're also saying that the reason you shouldn't wait to see if the shot goes in is because it will make a coach mad?

This should really open a floodgate.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

1) However, there are other factors involved to me, more than just the ball going in or not. I think you also need to add in what the total team foul count is. If one team is way ahead in the foul count, I may just keep playing, but if the team that fouls is behind in the foul count. For ex: 9 - 1 team fouls, well they now have 2 team fouls. I would add this to the equation. Also, I would add to the equation the intensity level at this time in the game.

2) This same play in college is a foul to me.

1) I beg to differ, but I also must say that your personal philosophy does not surprise me at all. Call fouls depending on how many fouls each team has been charged with at that particular time. Yup, heckuva idea.

2) At what college level that you are working is that a foul, JMO? D1, D2, D3, NAIA, JC? I'm just wondering if you call it that way in your D1 games as well as games at the lower college levels.