The "And 1"

[FrankHtown]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No, it's not. But a foul is not determined by whether a round ball goes through a medal hoop or not. If I'm wrong, plus reference the rule so I can read it.

I'm not sure I said anything about whether it had to go through the hoop or not.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) I beg to differ, but I also must say that your personal philosophy does not surprise me at all. Call fouls depending on how many fouls each team has been charged with at that particular time. Yup, heckuva idea.

That would be correct JR. It is our judgement and if I'm in between on an foul infraction, well if the team count is 9-1, it's not in between no more.

Peace

[ref18]

If you're in between on a foul, you shouldn't call it.

Only penalize clear violations of the rules. If it's iffy, it doesn't need to be called. And I don't believe in this trying to equalize the foul count BS, if it's a foul, when the count is 1-1, it's a foul when the count is 5-4 and it's a still a foul when the count is 9-1.

If it isn't a foul at 5-4 or 1-1 then I'm not calling it at 9-1.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

That would be correct JR. It is our judgement and if I'm in between on an foul infraction, well if the team count is 9-1, it's not in between no more.

And your answer to my second question is?

[Old School]

I think you're trying to be too correct. I think the times where you are not sure you should blow your whistle or not, occurs quite often in the game. Have you ever made a call and wish you didn't blow. I know I have, just about every game. I'm not saying I call fouls based exclusively on foul counts. That is not what I said. However, if unsure on a given play, that imbalance might sway me to lend more towards it being an infraction or not. Again, we want to be consistent at both ends of the floor.

[Eastshire]

I let whether the basket is made inform my judgement on marginal contact.

Some contact clearly disadvantages a player and will always be called. Sometimes this player will be able to overcome the disadvantage and make a basket. He is rewarded with the "and 1."

Some contact is so trivial that it will never be called. Tough luck.

Some contact could go either way. For this contact, I look at the result to see what disadvantage might have occured. If I haven't determined within a second that the player was disadvantaged, I pass. If in that second something "bad" happens to the offended player (missed or ackward shot, interupted dribble, bad pass, etc.), I call the contact. If none of those things happen, what disadvantage has occured?

Now, on long shots you usually don't have the chance to see if it is good or not so you have to go with less information than you can go with in the post.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by ref18

If you're in between on a foul, you shouldn't call it.

Only penalize clear violations of the rules. If it's iffy, it doesn't need to be called. And I don't believe in this trying to equalize the foul count BS, if it's a foul, when the count is 1-1, it's a foul when the count is 5-4 and it's a still a foul when the count is 9-1.

If it isn't a foul at 5-4 or 1-1 then I'm not calling it at 9-1.

I don't believe in evening up the foul count either, in fact I had a game last night where it was 7 to 0 at one point time, and it was just the plain fact that the team who had 7 were just murderers.

On that note though, I am still with old school. I do take the foul count into consideration on some plays. I'm sure you have all heard something similar to this on the floor: "Alright guys white has 6 and blue has 1, let's not make anything up but let's just make sure we don't miss one against blue"

So in that case that tells me if I have contact on something marginal it is not going to hurt me to take that play, especially in the first half when more than likely that foul is going to be the kids first(they have one foul overall)

The great official Dave Libbey said this and posed it as a question to a group of officials: "Do you think you can have the same play at different parts of the game, and call it differently and still be right?" To that he answered yes you could, and he was talking about situations like foul counts and the time of the game or the half.

[refnrev]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is always going to be some contact in the game of basket. You cannot call everything a foul.

Peace

_________________________
Basket? I miss Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy. Actually Rut, you can call everything. I had a partner two weeks ago who did. Needless to say, it was a horrible night!!!!!

As for the original post, call the fouls and let the ticky tack stuff go. If he's hacked and makes it he deserved the "and 1!"

[TimTaylor]

IMHO, a foul is a foul. If the contact is sufficient I'll call it and if I judge it incidental I won't - whether the attempt is successful or not.

And I really dislike the term "and 1" - undoubtedly coined by some announcer somewhere.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

And I really dislike the term "and 1" - undoubtedly coined by some announcer somewhere.

Actually, I think that you probably can blame some veteran NBA official back in prehistoric times- back in the late 50's and 60's. It's been around for a while. I can remember watching NBA games live when I was a teenager and hearing veteran officials like Joe Gushue and Mendy Rudolph using the term on court.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I can remember ...when I was a teenager.

You must have taken really good notes.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

You must have taken really good notes.

And when I read 'em, I break out crying.

I missed the Sexual Revolution by that much!

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And when I read 'em, I break out crying.

I missed the Sexual Revolution by that much!

Thank God for that!!! Can you imagine a bunch of little JR's running around the country??? Yikes...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Thank God for that!!! Can you imagine a bunch of little JR's running around the country??? Yikes...

"Who's your Daddy?"

Originally Posted by ref18

If it isn't a foul at 5-4 or 1-1 then I'm not calling it at 9-1.

As a newer official trying to get a feel for things, I'm agreeing with ref18 on this.
Being consistent is a pretty valuable attribute when trying to attain a level of respectability as an official. If I'm not calling a foul early on, I'm not calling the same thing late in the game just to even things up. If the foul count is way off, it's because you and your partner are calling them that way.