The "And 1"

[Junker]

Originally Posted by ref18

I'm just wondering what everyone else's philosophy is regarding calling a foul if the basket goes in.

Personally, the way I call it is that if the basket goes in, there's no disadvantage to the shooter, and I'm not calling anything unless the contact completely unnecessary, or I don't realize the ball's going in the hoop.

So, I'm wondering how many of you guys call it like this, and how many will give the shooter the extra shot?

I understand where you're coming from, but this might be too much of a generalization at the HS level. I think Nevada is on the right track. Get the obvious. I tend not to call too many "And 1" fouls. I very rarely call them in the post. If they can power it in, unless it's an obvious one, get the players up and down the floor.

[jmaellis]

New ref here, only doing youth BB for now, HS later. I've been trolling around this board for a couple of weeks and I'm a little confused (actually a lot confused depending on the rule) about some things, including advantage/disadvantage. Specifically relating to this thread, I'm wondering why an official would choose to ignore a shooting foul if the basket was made and yet call the same foul if the basket was not made.

As I understand some of the officials that have posted, they wouldn't call the foul because it didn't place the offended player at a disadvantage and/or didn't effect the outcome of the shot; and that the determination as to disadvantage or effect is solely based upon whether or not the ball ultimately went into the basket.

I don't understand this, so I'm hoping for further explanation. Is the philosophy of being at a “disadvantage” that a player is not at a disadvantage as long as the outcome of the play/shot is what that player intended to happen (such as a basket)? It doesn’t make sense that just because the player ultimately made the basked that he wasn’t necessarily put in a disadvantageous situation as the result of the foul.
It seems to me that just because the basket was made, it doesn't mean that the shooter was not placed at a disadvantage, it could just mean that the player overcame the disadvantage and made the basket and/or the disadvantage wasn’t so severe that it effected the ultimate outcome of the shot. Is an official required to judge how much of a disadvantage the foul caused and only call the foul if it crosses a certain threshold or resulted in an unintended outcome?

If the basis for calling a foul is whether or not the basket was made, a foul with a basket = no disadvantage and conversely, a foul without a basket = disadvantage. In a situation when there is a foul and then a missed shot how would the official determine whether or not the foul caused a disadvantage .. it may have been a shot that wouldn’t have gone in anyway, therefore the foul did not call a disadvantage and it is not called.

From a newbie perspective it doesn’t make sense to not call a foul simply/only because the offended player made the basket, when the same foul would have been called if the basket was not successful.


So, this is really my ultimate question. Should the basis upon which the official makes the decision to call (or not call) the foul be:

1. Whether of not the shooter was placed at a perceived disadvantage because of the foul; or
2. Whether or not the shooter achieved his intended goal (in this case a basket) in spite of the foul, whether or not the foul put the player at a disadvantage?


….. or should the foul be called because it was a violation of the rules and it really isn’t possible to truly determine whether or not it caused a disadvantage.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

So, this is really my ultimate question. Should the basis upon which the official makes the decision to call (or not call) the foul be:

1. Whether of not the shooter was placed at a perceived disadvantage because of the foul; or
2. Whether or not the shooter achieved his intended goal (in this case a basket) in spite of the foul, whether or not the foul put the player at a disadvantage?

Good questions.

Simply put: sometimes 1, sometimes 2, sometimes neither.



IMO this is all stuff you shouldn't worry all that much about putting in your games right now, concentrate on understanding the rules as written, making solid calls all the time, communicating well with your partner and maintaining good position.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by ref18

I'm just wondering what everyone else's philosophy is regarding calling a foul if the basket goes in.

Personally, the way I call it is that if the basket goes in, there's no disadvantage to the shooter, and I'm not calling anything unless the contact completely unnecessary, or I don't realize the ball's going in the hoop.

So, I'm wondering how many of you guys call it like this, and how many will give the shooter the extra shot?

Good question. I'm surprised at all the responses. I'm also surprised JR hasn't come in and stated what the rulebook says to do. That's where you want to start. What does the rulebook say? Also, it matters as to what level you are referring too. If you are referring to high school. I think you need to put air in the whistle more times than not on an And-1. However, there are other factors involved to me, more than just the ball going in or not. I think you also need to add in what the total team foul count is. If one team is way ahead in the foul count, I may just keep playing, but if the team that fouls is behind in the foul count. For ex: 9 - 1 team fouls, well they now have 2 team fouls. I would add this to the equation. Also, I would add to the equation the intensity level at this time in the game.

What I think will get you in trouble is a late whistle on an And-1. If the ball hangs on the rim or bounces around and you're waiting to see if it goes down and it rolls out, and you put air in the whistle, defense gets the rebound. Guaranteed the coach is gonna have some choice words for you and the crew on that one.

A good example I can share with you is related to the men (not college). I had a player come down the paint hard the other day, go up and slam it home while the defense went up hard to block. Major collision at the basket (I'm lead and I was right underneath it), dunk successful, play ball. He misses dunk, we're shooting two. Where I think I draw the difference here is the intent of the defense. Did the defense go to block (or play) the ball or they just tried to foul the player? Any contact to the head or face will be a foul at any level. Anything less, my judgement. This same play in college is a foul to me.

Hope this helps...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Old School

...... there are other factors involved to me, more than just the ball going in or not. I think you also need to add in what the total team foul count is.
What I think will get you in trouble is a late whistle on an And-1. If the ball hangs on the rim or bounces around and you're waiting to see if it goes down and it rolls out, and you put air in the whistle, defense gets the rebound. Guaranteed the coach is gonna have some choice words for you and the crew on that one.

So you're saying the team foul count is a factor in your next foul call?
And you're also saying that the reason you shouldn't wait to see if the shot goes in is because it will make a coach mad?

This should really open a floodgate.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

1) However, there are other factors involved to me, more than just the ball going in or not. I think you also need to add in what the total team foul count is. If one team is way ahead in the foul count, I may just keep playing, but if the team that fouls is behind in the foul count. For ex: 9 - 1 team fouls, well they now have 2 team fouls. I would add this to the equation. Also, I would add to the equation the intensity level at this time in the game.

2) This same play in college is a foul to me.

1) I beg to differ, but I also must say that your personal philosophy does not surprise me at all. Call fouls depending on how many fouls each team has been charged with at that particular time. Yup, heckuva idea.

2) At what college level that you are working is that a foul, JMO? D1, D2, D3, NAIA, JC? I'm just wondering if you call it that way in your D1 games as well as games at the lower college levels.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) I beg to differ, but I also must say that your personal philosophy does not surprise me at all. Call fouls depending on how many fouls each team has been charged with at that particular time. Yup, heckuva idea.

That would be correct JR. It is our judgement and if I'm in between on an foul infraction, well if the team count is 9-1, it's not in between no more.

Peace

[ref18]

If you're in between on a foul, you shouldn't call it.

Only penalize clear violations of the rules. If it's iffy, it doesn't need to be called. And I don't believe in this trying to equalize the foul count BS, if it's a foul, when the count is 1-1, it's a foul when the count is 5-4 and it's a still a foul when the count is 9-1.

If it isn't a foul at 5-4 or 1-1 then I'm not calling it at 9-1.

[Old School]

I think you're trying to be too correct. I think the times where you are not sure you should blow your whistle or not, occurs quite often in the game. Have you ever made a call and wish you didn't blow. I know I have, just about every game. I'm not saying I call fouls based exclusively on foul counts. That is not what I said. However, if unsure on a given play, that imbalance might sway me to lend more towards it being an infraction or not. Again, we want to be consistent at both ends of the floor.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by ref18

If you're in between on a foul, you shouldn't call it.

Only penalize clear violations of the rules. If it's iffy, it doesn't need to be called. And I don't believe in this trying to equalize the foul count BS, if it's a foul, when the count is 1-1, it's a foul when the count is 5-4 and it's a still a foul when the count is 9-1.

If it isn't a foul at 5-4 or 1-1 then I'm not calling it at 9-1.

I don't believe in evening up the foul count either, in fact I had a game last night where it was 7 to 0 at one point time, and it was just the plain fact that the team who had 7 were just murderers.

On that note though, I am still with old school. I do take the foul count into consideration on some plays. I'm sure you have all heard something similar to this on the floor: "Alright guys white has 6 and blue has 1, let's not make anything up but let's just make sure we don't miss one against blue"

So in that case that tells me if I have contact on something marginal it is not going to hurt me to take that play, especially in the first half when more than likely that foul is going to be the kids first(they have one foul overall)

The great official Dave Libbey said this and posed it as a question to a group of officials: "Do you think you can have the same play at different parts of the game, and call it differently and still be right?" To that he answered yes you could, and he was talking about situations like foul counts and the time of the game or the half.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

That would be correct JR. It is our judgement and if I'm in between on an foul infraction, well if the team count is 9-1, it's not in between no more.

And your answer to my second question is?