The "And 1"

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by PYRef

If the foul count is way off, it's because you and your partner are calling them that way.

Or because one team is playing more aggressively than the other, or tries to make up for physically what they lack in skills, or.........

Officials that are doing their job have little or no effect on how even the foul count is. Consistency is important. We've all heard "don't call something in Q4 that you didn't call in Q1". I like to think of it a little differently - more along the lines of "don't let something go in Q1 that you would probably call in Q4". Set the limits early, then stick by them throughout the game. Any halfway decently coached team will adjust.

[SMEngmann]

I am with the school of thought that you need to get obvious contact and not worry about whether the ball goes in or not. I think it is an irritant to coaches, players and fans for an official to come in with an extremely late whistle when waiting to see if the ball goes in. At some point we need to make the judgement ourselves. I was told at a camp somewhere that the goal of officials is to blow all fouls on a "10." A 9 is somewhat acceptable, as is an 11, but anything before means you're anticipating and not seeing the whole play and anything later means you're indecisive.

I do think whether the ball goes in can be an indicator of what types of fouls you're calling, and if it goes in too often, it may indicate that you're calling too much marginal contact and need to figure out why. What I think, though, we need to avoid is the mentality that we won't call "and 1s" because this mentality can lead to officiating to avoid calling plays that exist, which leads us to letting too much go. Just my humble opinion though.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

I am with the school of thought that you need to get obvious contact and not worry about whether the ball goes in or not. I think it is an irritant to coaches, players and fans for an official to come in with an extremely late whistle when waiting to see if the ball goes in. At some point we need to make the judgement ourselves. I was told at a camp somewhere that the goal of officials is to blow all fouls on a "10." A 9 is somewhat acceptable, as is an 11, but anything before means you're anticipating and not seeing the whole play and anything later means you're indecisive.

I do think whether the ball goes in can be an indicator of what types of fouls you're calling, and if it goes in too often, it may indicate that you're calling too much marginal contact and need to figure out why. What I think, though, we need to avoid is the mentality that we won't call "and 1s" because this mentality can lead to officiating to avoid calling plays that exist, which leads us to letting too much go. Just my humble opinion though.

SME,

I like your answer, but I don't understand the "10" thing. Could you explain further?

[Old School]

Big guy shoots a layup, little guy got no chance to stop. Big guy is gonna make this shot, however, little guy hits his shooting arm. Ball goes in, play on, no foul. I have done this many times.

Being a player and I still play on occasion. Current college players play thru contract. In the pickup games, they beat here other up. I mean they battle and they never call a foul or slow the game down. The professional player knows to play thru some contact.

Where I got myself in some trouble is my scenario above. In one instance, the shot doesn't go down. So in this situation, men's game, I got disadvantage because he hit the shooting arm, so I put air in the whistle, 2 shots!!! The best dunker in the gym came out of nowhere, caught the ball off the rim and made a spectacle put-back dunk! Bought the house down. Damn! I said to myself as I had to wave it off, 2 shots for the big guy, little guy on the shooting arm.

I think this is an excellent question. Damn if you do, damn if you don't. Isn't officiating fun? Coaches will play both sides of this issue too. They will say, if you don't call it and the shot falls out, call the foul ref! Then, if something like what I explained above happens. Coach will say, come on ref, you could have let that one go! Defensive coach will say, good call ref!

[SmokeEater]

If its a foul, ITS A FOUL. Make the call and be CONSISTANT.

There is nothing I hate more then having to say to a coach that the ball went in so we no called it at your end but the exact same contact at the other end gets called because your opponent missed his shot.

Actually I have never had to do this but would really not like to either.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

If its a foul, ITS A FOUL. Make the call and be CONSISTANT.

While true, this tautology is unhelpful advice to someone trying to determine whether it's a foul.

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

There is nothing I hate more then having to say to a coach that the ball went in so we no called it at your end but the exact same contact at the other end gets called because your opponent missed his shot.

Actually I have never had to do this but would really not like to either.

This doesn't make sense to me. If it were the exact same contact, the shot would have gone in. The fact that the shot was missed shows that it was NOT the exact same contact.

[Old School]

Big guy shoots a layup, little guy got no chance to stop. Big guy is gonna make this shot, however, little guy hits his shooting arm. Ball goes in, play on, no foul. I have done this many times.

Being a player and I still play on occasion. Current college players play thru contract. In the pickup games, they beat here other up. I mean they battle and they never call a foul or slow the game down. The professional player knows to play thru some contact.

Where I got myself in some trouble is my scenario above. In one instance, the shot doesn't go down. So in this situation, men's game, I got disadvantage because he hit the shooting arm, so I put air in the whistle, 2 shots!!! The best dunker in the gym came out of nowhere, caught the ball off the rim and made a spectacle put-back dunk! Bought the house down. Damn! I said to myself as I had to wave it off, 2 shots for the big guy, little guy on the shooting arm.

I think this is an excellent question. Damn if you do, damn if you don't. Isn't officiating fun? Coaches will play both sides of this issue too. They will say, if you don't call it and the shot falls out, call the foul ref! Then, if something like what I explained above happens. Coach will say, come on ref, you could have let that one go! Defensive coach will say, good call ref!

[SmokeEater]

Not necessarily. A lucky bouce on the rim and in it goes or one player just is able to play through the contact. Still same contact just different result.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Old School

Big guy shoots a layup, little guy got no chance to stop. Big guy is gonna make this shot, however, little guy hits his shooting arm. Ball goes in, play on, no foul. I have done this many times.

Being a player and I still play on occasion. Current college players play thru contract. In the pickup games, they beat here other up. I mean they battle and they never call a foul or slow the game down. The professional player knows to play thru some contact.

Where I got myself in some trouble is my scenario above. In one instance, the shot doesn't go down. So in this situation, men's game, I got disadvantage because he hit the shooting arm, so I put air in the whistle, 2 shots!!! The best dunker in the gym came out of nowhere, caught the ball off the rim and made a spectacle put-back dunk! Bought the house down. Damn! I said to myself as I had to wave it off, 2 shots for the big guy, little guy on the shooting arm.

I think this is an excellent question. Damn if you do, damn if you don't. Isn't officiating fun? Coaches will play both sides of this issue too. They will say, if you don't call it and the shot falls out, call the foul ref! Then, if something like what I explained above happens. Coach will say, come on ref, you could have let that one go! Defensive coach will say, good call ref!

I think someone will have something to say about part of your post above.

I was wondering why this thread kept growing and now I see. It is sort of funny to see someone say they don't have much experience and then go on to say, with authority, what is and isn't an "and 1." Calling a foul a foul regardless of anything else? Yeah, tell us how that works out for you. How many officials have a different opinion about these calls now than they did 10 years ago? I do. How many officials would call them differently now than they would 10 years ago? I do. How many officials can instinctively call a high school game on Tuesday differently than a JUCO game on Wednesday? Instincts or a feel for the game is what changes with experience. The more you have a feel for the game the better we handle situations and recognize BS like asking someone to chime in with a rule about an "and 1" situation. My advice would probably be close to:

If you are doing JV games, work on your focus in your primary and call almost everything you think is a foul regardless of the ball going in or not. As time goes on and you move up, develop a feel for these plays - and the game (awareness).

I can absolutely say that I have no absolutes when it comes to most of these plays.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

This doesn't make sense to me. If it were the exact same contact, the shot would have gone in. The fact that the shot was missed shows that it was NOT the exact same contact.

Now this doesn't make sense at all.

Why assume 2 different players react the same to contact?
Why assume both players shot the ball exactly the same way?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I can absolutely say that I have no absolutes when it comes to most of these plays.

Bingo!

We have a winner.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by mbyron

While true, this tautology is unhelpful advice to someone trying to determine whether it's a foul.



This doesn't make sense to me. If it were the exact same contact, the shot would have gone in. The fact that the shot was missed shows that it was NOT the exact same contact.

Why not? It was 2 different shooters on 2 different shots from 2 different spots.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I call solid contact that should not be ignored. I pass on minimal contact that didn't effect the play.

Essentially, call the obvious.

IMO, there is no one correct answer but I'd say this one is pretty accurate.
The "and1" play is one of the most exciting plays in basketball and if a kid earns it, I say don't deny him.
I agree that the higher the level, the more (s)he has to earn it.

[Chess Ref]

This thread is right on time for me. I am on the sub varsity circuit and I have learned to blow my whistle. Now I am learning when to pass on a whistle.

My latest learning sitch was the other night. Boys frosh game. player A makes a lay-up. On the way back down to earth Player B gives him a little nudge with his hip. I didn't like it, almost whistled it but I passed. Sure enough the sitch is reversed and Team A gives a nice hard hip shot to Team B on their return to earth. I tweet that one.

The lesson I learned is to trust my instincts are whether it's passable or not. In retrospect I should have tweeted that first one but have been feeling pressured to call less fouls and I let that factor into my decision.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Old School

blah, blah, blah

Originally Posted by tomegun

I think someone will have something to say about part of your post above.

Some of us have exercised the Ignore option when it comes to particular person.