Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

QED me up a rules citation that will back your supposition up and negate the citations that I gave.

QED's don't mean squat unless they have rules backing. There was no rules backing for the answer posted on the district3hoops site. It's that simple.

Rule 5-10
ART. 2 . . . If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction.


If I say that 0.5 seconds elapsed between the whistle and the horn because I was counting, it is official. I don't have to see the clock in this case. I know that the whistle was the start of the interval and the end was signaled by the horn. If I counted that duration, I can fix it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Rule 5-10
ART. 2 . . . If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction.


If I say that 0.5 seconds elapsed between the whistle and the horn because I was counting, it is official. I don't have to see the clock in this case. I know that the whistle was the start of the interval and the end was signaled by the horn. If I counted that duration, I can fix it.

Um yeah, agreed......but I'm talking about officials who don't have an official's count and don't have a clue re: how much time to put back on the clock. Rule 5-10-1 says that they can't put any time back on the clock, lacking definite information of some kind. Agree?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um yeah, agreed......but I'm talking about officials who don't have an official's count and don't have a clue re: how much time to put back on the clock. Rule 5-10-1 says that they can't put any time back on the clock, lacking definite information of some kind. Agree?

I do think the rules suggest that the official must have some idea of a time to put back but it seems very inconsistent and unfair to both kill the bucket AND not put time back. That time could be as little as 0.1 second.

The bucket should count, IMHO, even if the ref doesn't put time back on the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The bucket should count, IMHO, even if the ref doesn't put time back on the clock.

The problem is though that you have to have rules backing to count the bucket. Or do you?

It isn't a question of what's "fair". It's a question of what the rules will let you do. If you count that basket, how do you then explain it when the coach that lost the game because you counted the basket puts in a complaint? Think of the poor assignor that has to answer that one, without lying..

[just another ref]

I'm a little concerned about all this mention of looking at the clock and noting the time, in tenths no less, when the whistle blows on a last-second shot attempt. I hope that nobody goes into this scenario so intent on noting the time that he/she misses A1 doing a Chuck Norris move on B1 as he tries to tip one in at the buzzer.

[Ref in PA]

JR has it right. It is in the rule book in plain black and white.

For those who do not want to read the book

6-7 DEAD BALL "The ball becomes dead or remains dead when:
Art. 6 ... Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below)
Art. 7 ... A foul, other than player- or team-control occurs (see exceptions a,b,c below)

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborn shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in glight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket."

The here is clearly stating that if a foul occurs, whistle, then buzzer, then shot that the ball will be considered a dead ball. Penalize the foul, but you cannot count the basket. The only exception to this would be 5-10-1 where the official has definite knowledge of the time. That states:

"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."

In this case the official is saying the quarter did not end, time is being place back on the clock, therefore a made basket after the horn (provided it was continuous motion) would be counted. Without that exact knowledge of the time, a made basket is waived off, and the FTs will end the period.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborn shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in glight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket."

The here is clearly stating that if a foul occurs, whistle, then buzzer, then shot that the ball will be considered a dead ball. Penalize the foul, but you cannot count the basket. The only exception to this would be 5-10-1 where the official has definite knowledge of the time. That states:

"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."

In this case the official is saying the quarter did not end, time is being place back on the clock, therefore a made basket after the horn (provided it was continuous motion) would be counted. Without that exact knowledge of the time, a made basket is waived off, and the FTs will end the period.

Okay, I don't think it clearly states what you say it does. If you have a player who starts his motion, the buzzer goes, the foul occurs, and the shot releases; then you have a clear instance where time expired before the shot was released.
"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer." This, with the removal of lag time, means if you know for a fact that the shot was released before the horn should have gone off, you should count the basket. If you don't know the exact time; all you can do is count the basket and shoot the shot, if it will make a difference, with the lane cleared.
When we had lag time, it made sense to allow time to expire. Now that the fed is allowing us to correct even tiny timer errors....