another rules question

[BktBallRef]

9-2-5
The thrower shall not carry the ball onto the court.

While the thrower is OOB, he cannot touch the floor inbounds or touch the ball while it is touvhing the floor inbounds. Even though he's touching OOB, he cannot touch inbounds nor can the ball while he's touching/holding it. This is the principle of 9-2-5.

9.2.5 SITUATION: Thrower A1 inadvertently steps through the plane of the boundary line and touches the court inbounds. A1 immediately steps back into normal out-of-bounds throw-in position. The contact with the court was during a situation: (a) with; or (b) without defensive pressure on the throw-in team.
RULING: A violation in both (a) and (b). COMMENT: Whether or not there was defensive pressure or whether or not stepping on the court was inadvertent, it is a violation and no judgment is required in making the call.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by roadking

after a made basket by B1 ball hits floor and stays on inbounds side of boundry plain. A1 goes out bounds and reaches threw boundry plain and tips ball to inbound player A2. Is this a violation and what rule can you site if it is a violation.
thanks

Yep, leave it alone.

[just another ref]

Team A scores. B1 grabs the ball and starts to take it out. He has one foot in and one foot out, and passes to B2. I called a violation. But, what happened was that B1 realized that A was coming with pressure and that B2 should take the ball out. I was disoriented when I realized what they were doing, but the call stood. 9.2.2 Situation C is the closest thing I find to this, but at what point does this become a violation?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Team A scores. B1 grabs the ball and starts to take it out. He has one foot in and one foot out, and passes to B2. I called a violation. But, what happened was that B1 realized that A was coming with pressure and that B2 should take the ball out. I was disoriented when I realized what they were doing, but the call stood. 9.2.2 Situation C is the closest thing I find to this, but at what point does this become a violation?

It becomes a violation when you think that B1 is actually making a throw-in instead of just giving the ball to B2 to make the throw-in. Judgment call iow.

[Adam]

I'd give it just a moment to see what B2 does with the ball. Patient whistle, IOW.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Alright Bkt, Snaq, and Jurassic, I'm pretty much there, I guess.

But by the logic you've all displayed, wouldn't it also be a violation for the thrower to go out of bounds, reach, and tap the still in-bounds ball to him/herself to then pick up and throw in? Or does this fall under: By the strict interp of the rules (as has been laid out here), yes, this is a violation, but we're going to leave it alone now, because it doesn't look as strange, and no one's gaining an advantage, etc.?

(Edited to include)

And also, two of the rule citations listed in this thread are at opposition with one another, if we're saying they both have equal precedence.

4-4-1 (and 4-4-2, for that matter) A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.

4-4-4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location.

Because, as both myself and someone else have already asserted, the ball cannot be both out of bounds and in the back(or front)court.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Alright Bkt, Snaq, and Jurassic, I'm pretty much there, I guess.

But by the logic you've all displayed, wouldn't it also be a violation for the thrower to go out of bounds, reach, and tap the still in-bounds ball to him/herself to then pick up and throw in? Or does this fall under: By the strict interp of the rules (as has been laid out here), yes, this is a violation, but we're going to leave it alone now, because it doesn't look as strange, and no one's gaining an advantage, etc.?

I didn't give you logic. I gave you rules. Whether you choose to believe or disbelieve those rules is completely up to you.

What you're talking about above is the method the player is using to get ready to start the throw-in, not what rules are actually used to govern the thrower after the throw-in has started. See rule 4-42-3 and 7-6-1. The throw-in and the throw-in count do not start until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. In the case above, the throw-in does not start until after the player OOB had possession of the ball OOB- iow after he had tapped the ball to himself.

[Adam]

One will take precedence over the other during a live ball in bounds. BC takes precedence over FC if a player is touching both. OOB takes precedence over IB if the player is touching both. During a throw in, it's slightly different. The player is only allowed to be OOB. Once he gets OOB, he must stay there until the ball is released on a pass. You call the violation for the same reason you call a violation if he hands it off to a teammate or if he lets even one toe touch the court in bounds before he releases the pass.

In your new situation, she is attempting to pull the ball OOB to secure it for a throwin. No violation. In the original situation, she is attempting to short cut the rule by batting the ball. If the ball is in the air (bouncing) when she bats it, legal. If it's on the floor, the ball is now both in bounds and out of bounds; this is the violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

(Edited to include)

And also, two of the rule citations listed in this thread are at opposition with one another, if we're saying they both have equal precedence.

4-4-1 (and 4-4-2, for that matter) A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.

4-4-4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location.

Because, as both myself and someone else have already asserted, the ball cannot be both out of bounds and in the back(or front)court.

Answer to your edit....

No, these 2 citations are not opposite at all. They supplement each other. A player or an official is deemed to be part of the court at their standing location. So....if a ball touches a player in the backcourt or touches the backcourt(including an official standing in the backcourt), the ball is deemed to be touching the backcourt. Similarly, if the ball touches a player, frontcourt or an official standing in the frontcourt, the ball is deemed to be touching the frontcourt. It ain't rocket science.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I didn't give you logic. I gave you rules. Whether you choose to believe or disbelieve those rules is completely up to you.

I can read them in the book, so I believe them. I apologize for my poor choice of word(s).

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What you're talking about above is the method the player is using to get ready to start the throw-in, not what rules are actually used to govern the thrower after the throw-in has started. See rule 4-42-3 and 7-6-1. The throw-in and the throw-in count do not start until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. In the case above, the throw-in does not start until after the player OOB had possession of the ball OOB- iow after he had tapped the ball to himself.

That makes perfect sense. I appreciate the help.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What you're talking about above is the method the player is using to get ready to start the throw-in, not what rules are actually used to govern the thrower after the throw-in has started. See rule 4-42-3 and 7-6-1. The throw-in and the throw-in count do not start until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. In the case above, the throw-in does not start until after the player OOB had possession of the ball OOB- iow after he had tapped the ball to himself.

Not to start an argument you just made me think. If the player went OOB and the ball was sitting inbounds and the player was waiting for his team to get set up before he picked up the ball then I would start my count. Therefore the throw-in has started because the ball is at the disposal of the player even though the ball is still inbounds.

I've also made the argument in the past that you can be holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds and not have player control.

After a made basket B1 gets the ball but doesn't go directly OOB to make the throw-in. He is waiting for his team to get set up and thinks that the count doesn't start until he goes OOB. Little does he know that I've started my count and that he is 3 seconds away from a violation. This player is holding a live ball inbounds. Does this player have player control? If A1 fouls B1 what do we have? If B1 fouls A1 are we shooting bonus free throws?

I just sit around thinking of mundane things like this all day.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

After a made basket B1 gets the ball but doesn't go directly OOB to make the throw-in. He is waiting for his team to get set up and thinks that the count doesn't start until he goes OOB. Little does he know that I've started my count and that he is 3 seconds away from a violation. This player is holding a live ball inbounds. Does this player have player control? If A1 fouls B1 what do we have? If B1 fouls A1 are we shooting bonus free throws?

Live ball, players are inbounds, throw-in has started (ball at disposal).......

common fouls either way....free throws if team is in bonus

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

If the player went OOB and the ball was sitting inbounds and the player was waiting for his team to get set up before he picked up the ball then I would start my count. Therefore the throw-in has started because the ball is at the disposal of the player even though the ball is still inbounds.

1) Yup, the throw-in has started in that situation, but then taking or getting the ball OOB after you've started your count to make a legal throw-in still isn't a throw-in violation under any rule that I'm aware of. If you can think of one, post it.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Yup, the throw-in has started in that situation, but then taking or getting the ball OOB after you've started your count to make a legal throw-in still isn't a throw-in violation under any rule that I'm aware of. If you can think of one, post it.

If the Throw-in has started, while B1 is standing inbounds with the ball...then a foul by A1 would have to be intentional. Right?

Edit: Intentional/Flagrant/or ignored.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

If the Throw-in has started, while B1 is standing inbounds with the ball...then a foul by A1 would have to be intentional. Right?

No, only if A1 actually committed an intentional foul on another B player or if he fouled B1 inbounds(I think).

Once the throw-in started, the ball became live. That means 4-19-1NOTE goes out the door. A foul on another B player other than B1 would be a personal foul of some kind, solely dependant on the act, because the ball is live. But.... the rule book is kinda unclear as to whether a foul committed on B1 inbounds before he got OOB should actually be an intentional personal foul. Rule 9-2PENALTY4 only covers the situation where a defender fouls a thrower who is already OOB. I would imagine that you would use the same logic though to call an intentional personal foul if a defender fouled a player that was going OOB with a live ball to make the throw-in.

Good question, Dude.