Old Rules Question

[Nevadaref]

Since I am relatively young and don't have a good knowledge of the history of the rules of basketball, I'm hoping that some of you may be able to enlighten me. Especially, MTD and JR!
This weekend I had an older coach object to player control foul by saying that the defender was not set. (FYI she was backpedalling when the offensive player ran over her from the front.) I know this is heard quite frequently and I have also had this discussion with my father, who is 65, and tried to explain to him the concept of legal guarding position.
After seeing MTD's post in another thread about stepping on the OOB line, I started wondering if being "set"/stationary was ever part of the block/charge rule. Was it this way back in the 50s when my dad played high school ball? If so, when was it changed?

[Jurassic Referee]

Iirc,Nevada,the block/charge criteria have basically been the same since I started officiating back in 1959(at the age of 2). The same misconceptions about being required to stand still,etc. were just as prevalent then as they are now. I do think that officials understand the concept better now,and are more competent at calling the rule correctly than they were years ago . JMO.

[SamIAm]

My personal thought on charging is there are two types.

1) The defensive player is trying to draw a charge on an offensive play. (Steps into the path of an offensive player.)

2) The defensive player is maintaining his/her correct defensive position and gets charged into (ran over).

In scenario 1) above, I look for the defensive player to be set and square to the offensive player.
Set - Both feet on the playing floor.
Square - Feet and shoulders facing the offensive player.

In scenario 2) above, If I see the defensive player in a legal guarding position, I would need to see the offensive player going through the legal defensive position.

That leaves me room for no calls due to what I consider incidental contact.

Feel free to correct me if.

Off the subject - The rule books speak of offensive players, why doesn't it mention those offensive coaches?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SamIAm

In scenario 1) above, I look for the defensive player to be set and square to the offensive player.
Set - Both feet on the playing floor.
Square - Feet and shoulders facing the offensive player.


Feel free to correct me if.

OK,you're corrected.You're calling it completely wrong.There is NO requirement for a defensive player to be "set" or "square",as per your description above.What you are looking for is to make sure that the defender actually establishes a legal guarding position before the contact.

See NHHS rule 4-23-3. After the defender has obtained a legal guarding position,there is no obligation for him to be set or square when the contact occurs.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 2nd, 2003 at 09:48 AM]

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Iirc,Nevada,the block/charge criteria have basically been the same since I started officiating back in 1959(at the age of 2). The same misconceptions about being required to stand still,etc. were just as prevalent then as they are now. I do think that officials understand the concept better now,and are more competent at calling the rule correctly than they were years ago . JMO.

2??? In '59? Whatever.

Try 200.

[Tim Roden]

First of all, coaches will be coaches and object to whatever call you make on the block/charge. Just make sure in your mind that the initial guarding position has been optained and that the the defender moves backwards or "obliquely" from that point. sideways loses the position. I had a block the other day where the defender had position and when the offensive player recognized it, he went around and the defender went sideways to recover the position. The coach screamed at me for a wrong call but my partner, teacher of the rookie class in our chapter, who had a good look at the play, said I got it right.

[Lotto]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

OK,you're corrected.You're calling it completely wrong.There is NO requirement for a defensive player to be "set" or "square",as per your description above.What you are looking for is to make sure that the defender actually establishes a legal guarding position before the contact.

I don't think Sam is completely wrong. According to NCAA 4-33.6:

To establish initial legal guarding position on the player with the ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court....
b. The guard's torso shall face the opponent.

There's a little more there, but to establish legal guarding position on a player with the ball, at some point you must be both "set" and "square," to use Sam's terms. (Well, technically the feet don't have to 100% face the offensive player...)

To establish legal guarding position on a player without the ball, there is no requirement to be "set" and/or "square."

By the way, I don't see anything in this part of the NCAA rules about moving backwards or obliquely. The statement in 4-33.4 is: "The guard may maintain guarding position in the path of the dribbler, provided that the guard does not charge into the dribbler nor otherwise cause contact as in Rule 10-19.2 and 10-19.3."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Tim Roden
Just make sure in your mind that the initial guarding position has been optained and that the the defender moves backwards or "obliquely" from that point. sideways loses the position. I had a block the other day where the defender had position and when the offensive player recognized it, he went around and the defender went sideways to recover the position. The coach screamed at me for a wrong call but my partner, teacher of the rookie class in our chapter, who had a good look at the play, said I got it right.

Disagree about the "sideways" part,Tim.See NFHS rule 4-23-3(b)-"the defender may move LATERALLY or obliquely to maintain position,provided it is not towards he opponent when contact occurs". If the defender goes sideways,you're looking for a coupla things:
1)Did the dribbler get the head and shoulders past the defender?If so,ya got a block.
2)Where did the contact occur?If the defender moves sideways to stay with the dribbler,after the defender has established a legal guarding position,and the ensuing contact is on the defender's torso,ya got a charge.Contact out side the torso would be a block.

NCAA rule 10-19AR20 basically sys the same thing without actually using the word "laterally". Once attaining a specific guarding position- "No specific time or distance shall be required.The guard may shift to maintain his or her position in the path of the dribbler,provided that the player who is guarding does not charge into the dribbler or otherwise cause contact as oulined in this section. Iow,the defender can move in any direction once they've attained a legal guarding position except forward into the dribbler.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 2nd, 2003 at 03:14 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Lotto

To establish initial legal guarding position on the player with the ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court....
b. The guard's torso shall face the opponent.

There's a little more there, but to establish legal guarding position on a player with the ball, at some point you must be both "set" and "square," to use Sam's terms. (Well, technically the feet don't have to 100% face the offensive player...)


By the way, I don't see anything in this part of the NCAA rules about moving backwards or obliquely. The statement in 4-33.4 is: "The guard may maintain guarding position in the path of the dribbler, provided that the guard does not charge into the dribbler nor otherwise cause contact as in Rule 10-19.2 and 10-19.3." [/B]

Lotto,my point was that Sam's answer for #1 was incomplete.You do have to establish a legal guarding position,as per the criteria that you outlined above.After you have established that legal guarding position,you do NOT have to maintain those criteria(set,square) to have a foul on the dribbler.

NCAA rule 10-19AR20 basically says that-the defender can move in any direction after the legal guarding position is attained,except towards the dribbler.I paraphrased it for Tim above.