Jump Ball strange one

[Nevadaref]

The referee tosses the ball to begin the game. A1 jumps up and slaps the ball as hard as he can. The ball sails directly into his basket without touching the floor.

Two questions:
1. How many points are scored for Team A?

2. Exactly when is the AP arrow initially set and to which team?

[Gimlet25id]

3 points. AP would be set towards B after the made basket and the ball is @ the disposal of the B team

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

3 points. AP would be set towards B after the made basket and the ball is @ the disposal of the B team

Are you sure about that? You might want to check your rules book.

[Gimlet25id]

Funny play...Did this happen? Let me correct my self. Since the jump ball was not actually secured by a player until after the throw in after the made basket the arrow would be set towrds A basket. @ least that is what I take by the AP rule. If I'm wrong please enlighten me...

[Nevadaref]

What if Team A steals the ensuing throw-in pass?

This question was posed to me today by one of my fellow HS officials after he saw the ball put directly into the basket from a jump ball held in the FT circle during an NBA game last night. (That player actually caught the ball with one hand and tossed it in, so the officials correctly waved off the basket for the jump ball violation.)

[Gimlet25id]

In the play you wrote. If I'm reading the AP rule correctly, Rule 4 Section 3 Art. 3 a,b,c. "The ball is placed @ the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before [B]A players secures control.[B]
b. The free throws for a noncommon foul
c. A common foul before the bonus free throw is in effect.

So in your play, player control never had a chance to be established. So as in B. Once the ball is @ the disposal of the thrower from the B team the arrow would be set towards A basket. If A steals the ball then the arrow would still set to A's basket since it was originally @ the disposal of the B team.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

In the play you wrote. If I'm reading the AP rule correctly, Rule 4 Section 3 Art. 3 a,b,c. "The ball is placed @ the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.
b. The free throws for a noncommon foul
c. A common foul before the bonus free throw is in effect.

So in your play, player control never had a chance to be established. So as in B. Once the ball is @ the disposal of the thrower from the B team the arrow would be set towards A basket. If A steals the ball then the arrow would still set to A's basket since it was originally @ the disposal of the B team.

Did any of the items that I underlined occur? Nope. So article 3 doesn't apply to this situation at all.

[Gimlet25id]

Right. They didn't happen specifically. However parts from each helps us make the right ruling, since your play isn't any any rule book or case book.

1. Player control couldn't be established because of the made basket by the A team.
2. Just as in after made free throws, after a made basket as in your play. The ball is placed @ the disposal of the thrower. ( one of the exceptions to the player control option to set arrow.)
3. The sam ewould be true if it was just a common foul. The ball is @ a disposal of a thrower.

In all cases if the ball can't be in player control as in the ball reboundiing off of the rim instead of going in then the rebounding team gains player control which would set he arrow direction. In your case the ball went in. No player control can happen so that takes us to article 3.

Hope its making sense...

[Nevadaref]

Actually, I think that 4-3-1 probably covers it, but we just have to wait a bit until the ball is controlled inbounds. Of course, it is not entirely clear that this rule applies since that article ends with the words "as after the jump ball." Some may construe that to mean that article 1 only applies to jump ball situations. If that is the case, then this situation truly is not covered by any existing rule and 2-3 would have to be invoked to set the initial direction of the AP arrow!

You will notice that I don't ask simple questions on this forum. When I ask a question it is usually because there is some uncertainty in the rules.

While it is doubtful that this situation will ever happen, I posted this in the hope that someone will read this and deepen their understanding of how the AP arrow is initially set.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Actually, I think that 4-3-1 probably covers it, but we just have to wait a bit until the ball is controlled inbounds. Of course, it is not entirely clear that this rule applies since that article ends with the words "as after the jump ball." Some may construe that to mean that article 1 only applies to jump ball situations. If that is the case, then this situation truly is not covered by any existing rule and 2-3 would have to be invoked to set the initial direction of the AP arrow!

You will notice that I don't ask simple questions on this forum. When I ask a question it is usually because there is some uncertainty in the rules.

While it is doubtful that this situation will ever happen, I posted this in the hope that someone will read this and deepen their understanding of how the AP arrow is initially set.

No doubt that it will deepen your understanding of the AP. I will have to disagree that we would have to wait for the ball to be controlled inbounds. In this case we are talking about setting the INITIAL direction. Not adminstering a AP Throw in.

So instead of going to 2-3 I 'm sure we can adminster this play under 4-3 and be just fine. We're really not relying on 4-3 art. 1 but more importantly 4-3 art. 2-3. We've had a score regardless if its free throws or a basket I'm sure it would be the same.

I'm enjoying the discussion...

[Lotto]

Since this one isn't covered by anything in the rulebook other than 2-3 (elastic power), I go with the setting the arrow in B's direction as soon as the ball passes through the basket.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Lotto

Since this one isn't covered by anything in the rulebook other than 2-3 (elastic power), I go with the setting the arrow in B's direction as soon as the ball passes through the basket.

So you don't believe that this part applies in this situation?


RULE 4, SECTION 3 SETTING DIRECTION OF INITIAL ARROW
Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when:
ART. 1 . . . A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball.
ART. 2 . . . The ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower after a common foul when the bonus free throw is in effect.
ART. 3 . . . The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.
b. The free throws for a noncommon foul.
c. A common foul before the bonus free throw is in effect.
NOTE: This procedure is used only to establish the alternating-possession procedure. See 6-4 for using the procedure and reversing the possession arrow.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So you don't believe that this part applies in this situation?


RULE 4, SECTION 3 SETTING DIRECTION OF INITIAL ARROW
Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when:
ART. 1 . . . A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball.
ART. 2 . . . The ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower after a common foul when the bonus free throw is in effect.
ART. 3 . . . The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.
b. The free throws for a noncommon foul.
c. A common foul before the bonus free throw is in effect.
NOTE: This procedure is used only to establish the alternating-possession procedure. See 6-4 for using the procedure and reversing the possession arrow.

I go with setting the initial arrow to Team A once B1 has ball at his disposal for throw-in. I would consider that as "A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I go with setting the initial arrow to Team A once B1 has ball at his disposal for throw-in. I would consider that as "A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball."

Really??? You believe that constitutes player control?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I go with setting the initial arrow to Team A once B1 has ball at his disposal for throw-in. I would consider that as "A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball."

I think I agree with this one, too. It can't be as soon as the ball goes through the basket, b/c we could have a foul before the throw-in team has "control" for the inbounds pass.

I also don't like waiting until the ball is controlled inbounds for the same reason. A1 has the ball for the throw-in and A2 commits a common foul before the ball is controlled inbounds. If the arrow doesn't get set until control inbounds, then Team A had the first "possession" of the game (their throw-in opportunity) and they get the arrow (when the ball is given to Team B for the throw-in following the foul). That doesn't seem right to me.

After the FTs for a non-common foul, the arrow is set when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder for the throw-in. Although there haven't been FTs, this seems like the most reasonable answer to me. And even though there isn't player control or team control during the throw-in, there is "control" in a looser sense of the word. Team A obvously "has the ball" for the throw-in. I just think it makes more sense than waiting for control inbounds.