Coverage Areas

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Would that be officiating intramural basketball up to now, David, by any chance?

Only for the first 2 years of the 8. I did intramurals during most of the rest of the time, as well as PIAA work.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I didn't say I HAVE to. I said that it has happened.

As for living, that is just another example of the ego concept - "How could you POSSIBLY want to come into my area that much?" I think if we threw the egos out, and just did our best for the game as a whole (and not just for our individual areas), we would be much better off. You folks are saying it is best for the game if we stay in our own little areas and out of each others. Again, I say, if it is THAT important, make it a rule, and only allow officials to call stuff in their primaries. If there are two games running on parallel courts, I don't have the right to call stuff on the other court - why should I have the right to call stuff outside my primary if I'm never supposed to?

What in the heck does ego have to do with something are you are totally wrong? You make it sound like when these calls are made, they are always, without fail, correct. You have made comments about "get it right" but all your examples of what you call I can do fine when I am officiating. I do not need someone to call a screen for me. In most cases I am not eye balling the ball handler that I cannot watch things around the ball handler.

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I have rarely found a basketball official that is willing to admit they messed a call up (and fix it, when possible), except to other officials or other people, like coaches, after a game, when their mistake stands. Basketball officials, of all of the officials I have seen and had contact with, have the biggest ego "My call-right or wrong", or "It was my call to mess up, so stay out of my area". And again, I need to say - I'm not the one determining the right-ness of the call - it is a call that anyone who knows what they are doing that is watching would admit is wrong.

Maybe that is what takes place where you live, but I work in at levels and with officials where we talk extensively about the games. I know when I screw up I tell my partners. When my partners screw up they talk about it as well. First of all most screw ups are a break down amongst the crew, so even when my partners screw up it is not just about them. Maybe that is a problem with the people you work with or you have not learned to show leadership to get a crew to open up about their mistakes. Also I feel that I do not need partners to admit mistakes for my satisfaction. Ultimately what makes someone a good official is what they do individually. I cannot magically make another official a good official because I am at the game. I have said this before and I will say this again, there is a reason why some officials are seen as good and work with many opportunities and there are reasons why others are held back and have very few opportunities.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

Just because bodies collided, does not mean there was a foul or that there needs to be something called. If bodies fall to the ground, I want to know why. If I did not see something, I definitely do not want to just make something up.

No kidding...Know one said to make anything up. I'm not referring to just bodies colliding. Talking about ILLEGAL EXCESSIVE CONTACT that leave player/players on the ground. I'm not sure your ever going to get my point.

What is going on in the C's area? I do not know about you, but I can see a screen in my coverage area when I have the ball in my area. If you referee the defense, you can see a screen develop. Also, a screen is often not a “no-brainer” call in my opinion. Most screens that are illegal are often iffy at best.

Sure we ought to be able to referee more then two players @ A time. The play I shot @ you was a BACKSIDE screen that was a ILLEGAL screen that leaves a defender on the floor. Not a so called iffy illegal screen.

The reason I told this story was to illustrate how people in two different positions can see different things. I thought the foul was a "no-brainer" and my partner did not. Then because I was out of my area, it was something that came to the attention of the evaluator.

You might have thought it was something to get...however it obviously wasn't. I'm not referring to MARGINAL contact or even MARGINAL fouls. I'm talking about the big one you see from time to time that makes you say, "why wasn't there a whistle on that play?"

I do not recall anyone using the term "never" when they talked about calling outside of their coverage area. I do recall that there are people saying not to go out of your way to make calls in your partner's area. Give your partner a chance to make a call that they clearly can see.

If you have a quote then we can go on from there, but stop saying people said something they did not say.

Here is the quote I was referring to. From the thread starter

Basketball, in the 8 years I have done it, seems to be much more focussed on "If it aint in your area, don't call it".

Again, read the whole thing and you may actually get this....

I am not sure what camps you attend, but you go to camp to prove your ability, not to help a lesser official out. This is much more the case a camp than it ever will be in a regular game.

I attended five D1 camps this summer as well as the last few years. In the camps I've been to and the games I work this philosphy is common place. Your statement is wrong about camps. I'm wondering what you work now if your mentality is what it is. College supervisors are looking for "R's" not "U's" They want to find those people who can take care of the game, make their partners better, and are willing to step up when the need arises. This then proves your ability!

I am not going to camp to show I can call a foul out of another partner's area. Also not one evaluator at this camp I referred to suggested anything you have suggested. Now all of them were D1 officials or D1 evaluators. So I will take their advice on what to do.

Really...Nobody said that you should prove that you can call in your partners primary....Again I'm talking about the help call.

Also when there was this "excessive contact" you keep trying to refer to, they got on the official that missed the call in their primary.

If there was excessive contact that the clinician is getting onto the official who's primary it was in then I'm sure that same clinician would've been saying good job if one of his partners would've helped out with the play.Its still ultimatly up to the primary official to get it. Give him/her first crack then if they don't get then you get it. Either the C to L or T to L or L to C. I guess thats why there this thing I've been talking about called, "secondary."

I am not adopting a philosophy that I feel does not show unity amongst a crew or shows you give your crew member the benefit of the doubt.

Then don't adopt it. Maybe your OK where your @ and thats OK. If you want to move up you have to be willing to help your partners out if the time arises. If that time arises and you give the right help then that in fact shows unity in the crew.

I guess double whistles are out of the question for you then. In my neck of the woods double whistles help solidify either your call or your partners.

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting you call marginal plays on top of your partners. I'm just talking about the WHALE plays that we all know we have to have a whistle.

Whats more important to you? Getting the play right or staying in your primary only and whatever happens out of it happens.

If you don't agree thats ok. It is what it is!!! I was just trying to make a point way early on that there are times you have to call outside of your primary. Somehow we got this far down the road. It's good discussion and maybe it helps somebody out.

[drinkeii]

Once again, I completely agree with the last post. At least there are a few of us who feel this way out there.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

Once again, I completely agree with the last post. At least there are a few of us who feel this way out there.

Maybe there is only a "few of you" you feel this way for a reason.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Maybe there is only a "few of you" you feel this way for a reason.

Peace

Dude... thats harsh!!!! Your probably one of those guys who say its my way or the highway. You mean none of what I was saying makes any sense to you @ all.

I'm curious to the highest level you work @ now?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

If you want to move up you have to be willing to help your partners out if the time arises.

Whoa, don't throw that "You'll never move up unless you do it my way" nonsense in there. That boat don't float. That's your opinion only. My opinion is that if you're gonna be calling illegal backside screens all over the court, you've got a helluva lot better chance of moving out instead of moving up.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Whoa, don't throw that "You'll never move up unless you do it my way" nonsense in there. That boat don't float. That's your opinion only. My opinion is that if you're gonna be calling illegal backside screens all over the court, you've got a helluva lot better chance of moving out instead of moving up.

But that is exactly what some of you guys are saying. This is the way assignors want it called, so their way or the highway. You can't have it both ways.

And I think we are forgetting - assignors give out the games. They don't write the rules, they don't write the mechanics, and they certainly shouldn't influence who gets what games based on the ref's philosophy vs. their own. They should assign games based on ability level and fairness.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Whoa, don't throw that "You'll never move up unless you do it my way" nonsense in there. That boat don't float. That's your opinion only. My opinion is that if you're gonna be calling illegal backside screens all over the court, you've got a helluva lot better chance of moving out instead of moving up.

Are you saying that you wouldn't be willing to help on plays that are in your secondary and not in your primary? We were't talking about screens all over the floor. Take some time to read the entire post.

Nobody said that you would have to do it my way....Don't! I just can't believe that you can't see or agree that there are times when you will have to step up and get a call that may not be in your primary. If your the official who sees the WHALE play that I've been referring to and you and nobody else gets a whistle on the play. The tape WILL go to the supervisor. If on the film the play happenned in you secondary and you didn't get it what do you think the supervisor will ask you? He/She will ask did you see it? IF you say yes, but it wasn't in my primary..you would be the one that would bo on the hot seat. Your either out or going to lose games.

There are times in games where maybe you have nothing in your primary usually in the slot, and all the players are on the strong side of the floor. Center then is more likley to see BACKSIDE plays, better then Lead or Trail.
These are the plays where if center wasn't there we would be missing something as a crew.

Read the OP to understand why we got to where we are @.

[JRutledge]

Gimlet25id,

You keep talking about "excessive contact" as if that means there has to be a foul and all contact that is excessive is a foul no matter what. Then you refer to things like screens which by rule can have tons of contact and be legal.

I also never said there should not be double whistles. Good double whistles are usually a result of both officials calling the something in a dual or "fridge" area. Also many double fouls are in the lane. It is another thing to have a double whistle at the top of the key near the division line.

Whats more important to you? Getting the play right or staying in your primary only and whatever happens out of it happens.

I did not realize that officiating is about one way or another all the time. Everything I do is to try to get plays right. What about concentrating on what I am supposed to do? What about trusting that my partner saw the entire play and I did not? When I hear people say, “get it right,” that often does not mean get what is right, it means, “get what I feel is right.” The problem is your partner(s) might have an opinion as well. I also would not feel this way if I have not had partners completely make calls all in my area and they called something that I felt was totally wrong. I have also heard the, “but it looked like that from where I was standing,” but they did not see the entire play the way I did or my other partner.

I do not feel I need to see everything all over the court. I am sorry, but I do not. I am not going to save a game with an illegal screen call. I would completely agree with you if we were talking about how we administer a technical foul or if we did not give the right kid the right to shoot FTs. I do not agree with you that when judgment is involved that we can simply get it right when we are not in position. You seemed to forget that usually the person that is looking at their primary is in position to see the play. The person not calling in their primary is likely out of position or looking around bodies to make a call.

What ever works for you I guess?

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

But that is exactly what some of you guys are saying. This is the way assignors want it called, so their way or the highway. You can't have it both ways.

And I think we are forgetting - assignors give out the games. They don't write the rules, they don't write the mechanics, and they certainly shouldn't influence who gets what games based on the ref's philosophy vs. their own. They should assign games based on ability level and fairness.

David, you don't have a clue what people have been trying to tell you. That's fine too. We may suggest but we certainly can't tell you what to do. Your mind is made up anyway. Stick to your principles and t'hell with anybody that disagrees with you. I don't have a problem with that at all. I'm just stating for the record that I completely disagree with you.

Btw, assignors try to give out games to the officials that they feel are competent to do those games. That determination of competency is usually helped through feedback from evaluators and rules interpreters. If enough competent officials aren't available, then people that call all over the floor might then get the games, if they haven't been let go to give other new officials a shot. They usually won't be assigned to varsity games though. That's just too much of a risk. Most associations need bodies. That's what officials that won't listen to their evaluators/interpreters/assignors are. That's the way it works, like it or not, agree with it or not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Read the OP to understand why we got to where we are @.

Gimlet, I read your post about advocating calling illegal backside screens out of your primary. That's all I need to know to get to where I'm at with my personal opinion of you and your philosophy.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Gimlet25id,

You keep talking about "excessive contact" as if that means there has to be a foul and all contact that is excessive is a foul no matter what. Then you refer to things like screens which by rule can have tons of contact and be legal.

I also never said there should not be double whistles. Good double whistles are usually a result of both officials calling the something in a dual or "fridge" area. Also many double fouls are in the lane. It is another thing to have a double whistle at the top of the key near the division line.



I did not realize that officiating is about one way or another all the time. Everything I do is to try to get plays right. What about concentrating on what I am supposed to do? What about trusting that my partner saw the entire play and I did not? When I hear people say, “get it right,” that often does not mean get what is right, it means, “get what I feel is right.” The problem is your partner(s) might have an opinion as well. I also would not feel this way if I have not had partners completely make calls all in my area and they called something that I felt was totally wrong. I have also heard the, “but it looked like that from where I was standing,” but they did not see the entire play the way I did or my other partner.

I do not feel I need to see everything all over the court. I am sorry, but I do not. I am not going to save a game with an illegal screen call. I would completely agree with you if we were talking about how we administer a technical foul or if we did not give the right kid the right to shoot FTs. I do not agree with you that when judgment is involved that we can simply get it right when we are not in position. You seemed to forget that usually the person that is looking at their primary is in position to see the play. The person not calling in their primary is likely out of position or looking around bodies to make a call.

What ever works for you I guess?

Peace

People in their primary position get screened.

People in their primary position get too close to the play if it moves and they didn't anticipate the movement.

People in their primary position, focussing on what they are supposed to, may miss other things occurring in their primary, depending on what is happening and where.

And people looking at their primary are LIKELY to be in a position to see the play - not always, because of what was listed above. Likely... so a little help here and there is a good thing. And as was stated by the majority opposition party here, no official is perfect.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Gimlet, I read your post about advocating calling illegal backside screens out of your primary. That's all I need to know to get to where I'm at with my personal opinion of you and your philosophy.

Have you ever even heard of the term SECONDARY? If so what do you think that means?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Dude... thats harsh!!!! Your probably one of those guys who say its my way or the highway. You mean none of what I was saying makes any sense to you @ all.

I'm curious to the highest level you work @ now?

Dude, you really do not know much about me or my philosophies. I believe in the mechanics and I believe in team work. When someone does something outside of their job description, it causes resentment amongst crew mates and puts a higher scrutiny on the official not doing what is in their job description.

Since you asked I must give full disclosure. I work Football, Basketball and Baseball. I work college primarily in Basketball and Baseball. I was hired last year in D1 in baseball last year and likely will work again this year. I have been for years asked to work college football and finally this year I worked a few lower level college JV games to work on 7 man which is going to likely norm after this year. I say all of this because in working all these sports there is a belief to call your primary first and if you go out of your primary you better be 100% correct. If people on the crew (in any sport) do not carry their weight, they will not be there much longer. I guess the D1 mentor I referred to (who worked his first NCAA Men's Tournament this past season) also does not know what they are talking about and was an instructor at a D1 camp I attended last year is wrong and you are right.

Peace