Coverage Areas

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

People in their primary position get screened.

People in their primary position get too close to the play if it moves and they didn't anticipate the movement.

People in their primary position, focussing on what they are supposed to, may miss other things occurring in their primary, depending on what is happening and where.

And people looking at their primary are LIKELY to be in a position to see the play - not always, because of what was listed above. Likely... so a little help here and there is a good thing. And as was stated by the majority opposition party here, no official is perfect.

Just admit you do not trust your partners and we will all understand. All I am reading from your posts is "me, me, me, me, me." Now whose ego is getting in the way?

Peace

[zebraman]

Gimlet25id,

I care about getting the calls right. That is why I do not go looking into my partner's areas.

1) I should be taking care of my own business.
2) If you are ball watching it their area, you need to understand that they have the best look at the play 99% of the time. Maybe what you THOUGHT you saw while poaching wasn't actually what really happened.

[Gimlet25id]

You keep talking about "excessive contact" as if that means there has to be a foul and all contact that is excessive is a foul no matter what. Then you refer to things like screens which by rule can have tons of contact and be legal.

I'm talking about ILLEGAL contact or if you will ILLEGAL excessive contact. I used the screen play because that play tends to happen quite a bit @ the collegiate level. Besides I said ILLEGAL screens that happen to place a defender on the floor.

Good double whistles are usually a result of both officials calling the something in a dual or "fridge" area. Also many double fouls are in the lane. It is another thing to have a double whistle at the top of the key near the division line.

I agree with this!!!!

I did not realize that officiating is about one way or another all the time. Everything I do is to try to get plays right. What about concentrating on what I am supposed to do? What about trusting that my partner saw the entire play and I did not?

Sure If you didn't see the whole play then you shouldn't have a whistle. Your still trusting your partner. In fact you might even give them first crack. Generally on secondary coverage plays.

When I hear people say, “get it right,” that often does not mean get what is right, it means, “get what I feel is right.”

I'm not talking about what you feel is right, but what you know is right!!!

The problem is your partner(s) might have an opinion as well. I also would not feel this way if I have not had partners completely make calls all in my area and they called something that I felt was totally wrong.

I agree with you here. I'm sure we all have had partners who has called something on us that just wasn't there. Believe me those type of plays aren't the plays I'm referring to.

I do not feel I need to see everything all over the court. I am sorry, but I do not. I am not going to save a game with an illegal screen call.

You shouldn't see everything on the floor. You will see plays in your secondary from time to time that are in your partners primary that he/she might not see. You may never save a game with a pick up on a major illegal screen. You may prevent the offended kid from retaliating.

I do not agree with you that when judgment is involved that we can simply get it right when we are not in position. You seemed to forget that usually the person that is looking at their primary is in position to see the play. The person not calling in their primary is likely out of position or looking around bodies to make a call.

If you are working @ the college level then you know that there are times in every game where you would be picking up plays in your secondary. That doesn't mean your out of position or that your partner is out of position just that your position happens to give you the better angle to referee the play. In fact you may have closed in on the play. The key is to be in the best possible position to make the RIGHT call.

Great thoughts. Great comments!!!

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Gimlet25id,

I care about getting the calls right. That is why I do not go looking into my partner's areas.

1) I should be taking care of my own business.
2) If you are ball watching it their area, you need to understand that they have the best look at the play 99% of the time. Maybe what you THOUGHT you saw while poaching wasn't actually what really happened.

Another post that hasn't read the thread. If you had read all of the posts you would understand what I'm saying. Your basically saying that secondary coverage doesn't matter. What do you officiate if you don't have COMPETITIVE match ups in your primary. Do you take a break?

Nobody is condoling ball watching...

[rockyroad]

Wow...8 pages and counting. Good grief...There is a reason "Stay in your primary" is (or should be) part of every pre-game meeting. There is also something to be said for the attitude "if you see something that is a non-basketball play, go get it"...or as one of my Canadian buddies says - "If you see something that is for God and Country, come get it".

BUT...that really doesn't happen very often... I can think of about 5 times all last season where something NEEDED to be called...on the other hand, I can think of 12 separate calls that sent games straight to the crapper when a partner decided something outside their area needed to be called when it didn't...all 12 times involved phone calls from assignors and game film being sent out, and two of those involved officials who are no longer working games at that level (both were multiple calls in one game, even after the "Hey, what are you doing" talks at time-outs)...so feel free to go fishing outside your pond if you see a great white swimming around...but you better make sure it's a great white and not a little old harmless manatee...

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Wow...8 pages and counting. Good grief...There is a reason "Stay in your primary" is (or should be) part of every pre-game meeting. There is also something to be said for the attitude "if you see something that is a non-basketball play, go get it"...or as one of my Canadian buddies says - "If you see something that is for God and Country, come get it".

BUT...that really doesn't happen very often... I can think of about 5 times all last season where something NEEDED to be called...on the other hand, I can think of 12 separate calls that sent games straight to the crapper when a partner decided something outside their area needed to be called when it didn't...all 12 times involved phone calls from assignors and game film being sent out, and two of those involved officials who are no longer working games at that level (both were multiple calls in one game, even after the "Hey, what are you doing" talks at time-outs)...so feel free to go fishing outside your pond if you see a great white swimming around...but you better make sure it's a great white and not a little old harmless manatee...

Great Post!!!!!

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Just admit you do not trust your partners and we will all understand. All I am reading from your posts is "me, me, me, me, me." Now whose ego is getting in the way?

Peace

If that were true, I would be saying I should call things in your primary, but you better stay out of mine. Conversely, I am saying help each other out. You are making a lot of gross presumptions every time you argue this point. 1) That the foul/violation that occurred and was out of my primary that I chose to call was not a foul/violation simply because it wasn't in my primary or I was in a bad position to see it, 2) that every foul or violation can ONLY be called correctly by the person whose primary it is in, and 3) that the fouls or violations I am talking about are only able to be seen partially or incompletely by the person whose primary they are in.

None of these are true for any example I have spoken of. I do not at any time refer to a call where I think I am right, but I am actually wrong. In every case, I am speaking of a play where, had my partner seen everything I did, they would 100% agree with my call, as well as just about any person reviewing the tape afterwards.

[blindzebra]

Wow!

When you are working middle school, JV and rec ball...NEWSFLASH...you are going to have bad partners.

That said, David, you have several officials...all working high school varsity, state playoffs HS varsity, college ball of varying levels, and someone who hires, trains and fires officials...telling you what you are proposing isn't going to cut it, if you want to be the best official you can be.

That isn't our collective egos talking...FYI, you're the one spouting the get it right line, as if only you can get it right...it's experience, working knowledge of how things work, and most important WORKING KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THINGS WORK WITH PARTNERS YOU TRUST!

So my advice is pay attention...I work some middle school, youth, and rec ball too, along with the higher levels that I do...I do this because I love officiating and these games give me some extra cash, and chances to work on my game without the pressure, but it also gives me the chance to do my part in making some of the officials I work with at that level better.

Some are eager to learn the RIGHT WAY to do things.

Some don't want any part of improving and insist on making calls all over the court, many of which ARE WRONG BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT IN POSITION TO SEE THE ENTIRE PLAY, care to guess who was?

[blindzebra]

Gimlet, just some things.

If you don't have any match ups in your area...which is rare, especially if you do 2 whistle...you are taught, and expected, to expand your area to help. This is mainly for the C in 3 whistle.

But again, it's just like in 2 whistle where trail helps backside when lead comes ball side to take the ball below FT line extended or when lead expands to help opposite when trail has the ball high...these are expected and ways to improve court coverage. All officials on the court know that is what to do, and where they need to be looking, so in reality they are not calling out of their area, they are calling in their mechanically correct SECONDARY AREAS.

I keep reading screens, backside screens.

Properly positioned officials, that can officiate through a match up, are quite capable of officiating off ball while on ball. In fact my partner and I call those money calls, and have a little joke bet for the season on who will have the most.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Gimlet25id,

I care about getting the calls right. That is why I do not go looking into my partner's areas.

1) I should be taking care of my own business.
2) If you are ball watching it their area, you need to understand that they have the best look at the play 99% of the time. Maybe what you THOUGHT you saw while poaching wasn't actually what really happened.

You are assuming that #1) I am ball watching outside my area, and not just looking for competitive matchups farther away when I don't have any nearby, and #2) that the call I made was incorrect. You can't assume simply because I am farther away that I don't have a good view, or a complete view, of the situation.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

You are assuming that #1) I am ball watching outside my area, and not just looking for competitive matchups farther away when I don't have any nearby, and #2) that the call I made was incorrect. You can't assume simply because I am farther away that I don't have a good view, or a complete view, of the situation.

Then why should you assume that your partner has a worse view?

Why should you not assume, that perhaps they saw the entire thing perfectly well, and judged it to be legal?

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Wow!

When you are working middle school, JV and rec ball...NEWSFLASH...you are going to have bad partners.

That said, David, you have several officials...all working high school varsity, state playoffs HS varsity, college ball of varying levels, and someone who hires, trains and fires officials...telling you what you are proposing isn't going to cut it, if you want to be the best official you can be.

That isn't our collective egos talking...FYI, you're the one spouting the get it right line, as if only you can get it right...it's experience, working knowledge of how things work, and most important WORKING KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THINGS WORK WITH PARTNERS YOU TRUST!

So my advice is pay attention...I work some middle school, youth, and rec ball too, along with the higher levels that I do...I do this because I love officiating and these games give me some extra cash, and chances to work on my game without the pressure, but it also gives me the chance to do my part in making some of the officials I work with at that level better.

Some are eager to learn the RIGHT WAY to do things.

Some don't want any part of improving and insist on making calls all over the court, many of which ARE WRONG BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT IN POSITION TO SEE THE ENTIRE PLAY, care to guess who was?

And again, with the presumption that the calls are wrong simply because the person in the position who made the call wasn't in what the NFHS or you guys think is the only position you can see calls right from. As I said before - you folks assume that because it is not in your primary, you WILL make the wrong call, or that you can't see everything because it's not in your primary. Apparently, once my vision goes beyond 10-12 feet, everything I see is wrong. Guess I better stop driving then, because every time I try to avoid an obstacle coming at me, it's not where I see it or it's not what I think it is, or it's moving differently from what I'm seeing it moving as.

I see your point - and the fact that you have partners of varying abilities at various levels. However, to assume you are the only person who can call anything right in your primary area is incorrect. To assume every call you make outside your primary area is incorrect is incorrect. I'm not advocating throwing primaries out completely - I'm advocating less of the "Don't fish in my pond" and more "working together". To me, working together isn't saying "You call your area and i'll call mine, and if we miss something in our area, we better just stay in our area and not help each other out" - That's what this "You take care of your business and i'll take care of mine" is coming across as.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Gimlet, just some things.

If you don't have any match ups in your area...which is rare, especially if you do 2 whistle...you are taught, and expected, to expand your area to help. This is mainly for the C in 3 whistle.

But again, it's just like in 2 whistle where trail helps backside when lead comes ball side to take the ball below FT line extended or when lead expands to help opposite when trail has the ball high...these are expected and ways to improve court coverage. All officials on the court know that is what to do, and where they need to be looking, so in reality they are not calling out of their area, they are calling in their mechanically correct SECONDARY AREAS.

I keep reading screens, backside screens.

Properly positioned officials, that can officiate through a match up, are quite capable of officiating off ball while on ball. In fact my partner and I call those money calls, and have a little joke bet for the season on who will have the most.

I agree with this.

And the SECONDARY areas are the other person's PRIMARY areas - and are all fair game for any calls by any official, by rule.

Most of your watching, and most of your calls, should be in your primary area, but to say you have to stay out of your secondary areas completely is wrong. Both in my opinion, and in the mechanics of coverage - otherwise they wouldn't call it a secondary area - they would call it off-limits

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Then why should you assume that your partner has a worse view?

Why should you not assume, that perhaps they saw the entire thing perfectly well, and judged it to be legal?

Same thing - why should I presume, if I see them get screened, that they saw the whole thing, when it looks to me like they couldn't in that case? I'm not saying they had a worse view - i'm saying they had a different view. Why assume that their view is better than mine? Why assume it is worse? 2 views is always better than one - I doubt there would be too many people that would disagree with this.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Gimlet, just some things.

If you don't have any match ups in your area...which is rare, especially if you do 2 whistle...you are taught, and expected, to expand your area to help. This is mainly for the C in 3 whistle.

But again, it's just like in 2 whistle where trail helps backside when lead comes ball side to take the ball below FT line extended or when lead expands to help opposite when trail has the ball high...these are expected and ways to improve court coverage. All officials on the court know that is what to do, and where they need to be looking, so in reality they are not calling out of their area, they are calling in their mechanically correct SECONDARY AREAS.

I keep reading screens, backside screens.

Properly positioned officials, that can officiate through a match up, are quite capable of officiating off ball while on ball. In fact my partner and I call those money calls, and have a little joke bet for the season on who will have the most.

I totally agree with you. My comments were for the posts that suggest you should always stay in your primary and not ever get into someone else's. We know that the plays I was referring to are few and far in between, but they do happen. I work mostly 3. When working 3 there are times where it is essential for officials to know how and when to officiate their secondary areas of coverage.

A great example is when a drive to the basket is going down C's side of the paint, when the drive gets to the basket a player from the middle of the paint comes over to help and hacks the drive across the arm. Sometimes C is blocked and L sometimes has the same angle. A lot of times T has the best angle on this play because he/she is looking through the play @ the best angle