Help with Block or Charge

[cropduster]

Last night, Just Another Ref and I were watching a game together and the subject came up of a block or charge. I thought I had it but he offered a different view and I backed off until I could look it up. After I got home I read the rules, case, and funny book; then, I looked at some camp DVDs on block charges. I went to bed thinking that my interpretation was correct. This morning I've searched, a little, on here and now I'm still confused.

The point of dissagreement is head and shoulders past the guard. The way I have understood it, if the offense got his head and shoulders past, it was a block. JAR said that wasn't relevant if the guard had been standing there, he was entitled to his spot. That does sound logical but is that the way it is?

Don't read anything into this like I'm trying to one up JAR. We are friends and I respect his knowledge of the rules. I would just like it clarified from another source. Is this a cut and dried rule or will it always be subject to the official calling it?

barryb

[BktBallRef]

Even if the dribbler gets his head and shoulders past the defender, he can still be called for the foul if the defender has LGP and he barrels through him.

4-7-2b
If a guard has obtained a legal guarding position, the player with the ball must get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of the defensive player. If contact occurs on the torso of the defensive player, the dribbler is responsible for the contact.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by cropduster

The point of disagreement is head and shoulders past the guard. The way I have understood it, if the offense got his head and shoulders past, it was a block. JAR said that wasn't relevant if the guard had been standing there, he was entitled to his spot. That does sound logical but is that the way it is?

Here's the cite from the NFHS rule book: Rule 10-6-2.."If a dribbler, without contact, sufficiently passes an opponent to have head and shoulders in advance of that opponent, the greater responsibility for subsequent contact is on the opponent".

Note that it says "greater responsiblity" for contact. It doesn't say that all subsequent contact should be called on the defender. If the defender had a legal guarding position, then where the contact occurs determines who the foul should be charged to. If the subsequent contact is on the torso of the defender, the proper call is a charge on the dribbler. If the contact instead is outside the torso of the defender, the proper call is a block/hold on the defender.

There are cases where a dribbler can get their head/shoulders past a defender with LGP, and still make contact directly on the defender's torso. That's why the head/shoulders excerpt from the rules isn't written as being all inclusive.

[Junker]

I agree with both of the other posts. One thing I picked up from a very good DI official is that if the offensive player gets the defender in the chest, I'm going PC, if the defender gets hit anywhere else, I'm going block. I feel this simplifies the process and makes me consistent. Above all, I think with a PC/Block, the most important part is calling similar contact, similar ways. Not a lot of rules book citations there, but this is how I look at it.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Junker

I agree with both of the other posts. One thing I picked up from a very good DI official is that if the offensive player gets the defender in the chest, I'm going PC, if the defender gets hit anywhere else, I'm going block. I feel this simplifies the process and makes me consistent. Above all, I think with a PC/Block, the most important part is calling similar contact, similar ways. Not a lot of rules book citations there, but this is how I look at it.

I don't think that simplifies anything.

I could get behind what your D1 friends said IF we are talking about a defender attempting to GAIN LGP, but when it comes to a stationary defender or one moving to maintain LGP, I may have a charge, I may have a no-call but the one thing it isn't is a block.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Junker

if the offensive player gets the defender in the chest, I'm going PC,

That's over-simplified. You have to add "as long as B1 isn't moving forward at the time of contact."

if the defender gets hit anywhere else, I'm going block.

What if A1 tries to go over B1 and B1 gets hit in the head or face? Block?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by cropduster

The point of dissagreement is head and shoulders past the guard. The way I have understood it, if the offense got his head and shoulders past, it was a block. JAR said that wasn't relevant if the guard had been standing there, he was entitled to his spot. That does sound logical but is that the way it is?

Barry -- In general, although there are exceptions, I think that useing generalizations is dangerous (how's that for a mixed message ??) In this particular situation, I think you can use the term "who initiated contact". It's not always very helpful, but if the defender is just standing there waving to his mom, been there all day, and the dribbler is leaning enough that his head and shoulders are sort of past, but he makes contact with his hip or leg, I think you can ask, "Who initiated contact?" If the defender leans even a little, then you've got what our rules interpreter calls "new arrangements." But when the defender is really just being a tree, planted firmly and not swaying in the breeze, then you've either got incidental contact or PC.

I've seen this kind of play where the dribbler tries to get around the defender and the defender clearly doesn't move, but the dcribbler trips on the way past. If he loses the ball, I'm sucking whistle. If he gains something, I'll call a PC, but that's rare. Generally, I'm thinking, "A1 caused it, A1 suffers. That seems fair."

[jontheref]

On block charge, head and shoulders doesnt have any baring to the call. I also liked the adage...."take it on the chest its a charge". The key is -- be consistent within yourself and a crew and you shouldnt have any problems.

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

That's over-simplified. You have to add "as long as B1 isn't moving forward at the time of contact."

What if A1 tries to go over B1 and B1 gets hit in the head or face? Block?

it hits outside the chest, to bad, block ^^

Block charge, well, I went to a clinic the end of last season (Alan Richardson talked about block charge among other things). What he said is:
generally refs penalize the fast defenders. Referee's calls the block becuse they can't belive how fast the defender is.

If a player has established legal gaurding position (LGP), they may move, sideways and backwards and still have that position. They may also TURN inside their cylinder just before impact to soften the blow! This turn is almost evry time missed and refs says "he wasn't facing, block". It is NOT! If the defender has LGP he may turn to avoid injury.

But what is a LGP?
A LGP is established when the defender faces the offensive player and have both feet(!) on the floor. After this, the defender may move sideways or backwards, jump straight up in his cylinder, turn inside his cylinder (to avoid injury/soften collisions), if the contact takes place against the defenders chest (The defender has LGP) the book says: "the defender is considered to have been the first to the spot". This means, the defender was there first, he had LGP: Charge

Note also: the defender may go around other players, he can start at one baseline, slide down, go around several players, and still have his LGP.

A common miss (among coaches, players and officials) is that the defender must stand still and wait for the contact-forget it. The defender (if he has established LGP) doesn't even need to have both feet on the floor! You can jump in front of a player on the drive (if you had LGP before), be in the air, and still you have a charge.

This is hard to explain by text, but this is what I think about block charge. And also- Referee the defence! The defensive player is the key to block/charge. If you focuse on the defensive player you will get more correct calls then you will if you lock at the offender.

The player with the ball is like the driver of a car- if somebody gets in the way you turn the wheel. You don't run the pedestrian over, so players shouldn't be alowed to "drive over" defenders.

I hope this makes some sense to you, if not, I can't send you a tape of the clinic so

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jontheref

...."take it on the chest its a charge".

This is true more often than not, but the idea of this leads players to stick their chests out trying to draw contact. Not only does this distort the above concept, but many times when a player leans dramatically away from being vertical, the contact he draws will be with the arm/shoulder rather than the chest.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is true more often than not, but the idea of this leads players to stick their chests out trying to draw contact. Not only does this distort the above concept, but many times when a player leans dramatically away from being vertical, the contact he draws will be with the arm/shoulder rather than the chest.

Both are covered under the rules. If a player leans, contact on their chest/torso while doing so can be a block too. It doesn't have to be on the arm/shoulder.

Rule 10-6-1-- "A player shall not...impede the progress of an opponent...by bending the body into any other than a normal position."

[just another ref]

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
This is true more often than not, but the idea of this leads players to stick their chests out trying to draw contact. Not only does this distort the above concept, but many times when a player leans dramatically away from being vertical, the contact he draws will be with the arm/shoulder rather than the chest.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Both are covered under the rules. If a player leans, contact on their chest/torso while doing so can be a block too. It doesn't have to be on the arm/shoulder.

Rule 10-6-1-- "A player shall not...impede the progress of an opponent...by bending the body into any other than a normal position."

I agree. My point was some players have been led to believe that they cannot commit a blocking foul with contact on the chest. This leads these players to lean at whatever angle gravity will allow, and when they don't get the call they were looking for, their mothers yell, " BUT HE DIDN'T MOVE!!"

[IREFU2]

I has a similiar play yesterday at a college scrimmage. It wasnt a block/charge but the defender had a legal guarding position moving with the dribbler. As the dribbler tried to pass the defender, he dipped his shoulder into the chest of the defensive person and I called the PC. The coach went nuts was trying to say that the defender was moving. But when I explained to him the situation, he calmed down.

[cropduster]

Thanks everyone for the insight. Going back over the different post's helps and also adds fuel to the fire that our chosen sport comes down to how we interpret the situation.

Again, thanks for the help.

barryb