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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 04:28pm
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Penalty Administration Question

This came up in another thread, but I wanted to give it one of its own in order to get clearer feedback from everyone.

On the following play what calls do you make, how many FTs are awarded (shot), and how is the game resumed?

A1 and B1 create a held ball in the FT lane. These two players become entangled and are a bit upset with each other. After the whistle sounds and the players rise to their feet, A1 shoves B1 in the chest in an unsporting manner. B1 is pushed back about five feet and does nothing in response. As the officials close in and step between the two players, B6 leaves the team bench area, runs onto the floor, and punches A1 in the face. Since the officials are already right there, they are able to control the situation without anything else happening.
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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 05:01pm
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T on A1.

B6 charged with fighting and is ejected.

Indirect on B coach.

B shoots 2.

A shoots 2 and gets the ball at half court, no arrow change.

Now, we could charge A1 with fighting as well, since the push could fall under an unsporting act that leads to another player retaliating.
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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 05:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
T on A1.

B6 charged with fighting and is ejected.

Indirect on B coach.

B shoots 2.

A shoots 2 and gets the ball at half court, no arrow change.

Now, we could charge A1 with fighting as well, since the push could fall under an unsporting act that leads to another player retaliating.
Agree, but calling it a fight is a stretch imo. The melee woulda been over without B6's over-reaction.


Nevada will be along sometime though to report that some state handed down a ruling that, yes indeedy, it was a fight and A1 and B6 should both be charged with fighting flagrant fouls and ejected. Iow, it's a double flagrant technical foul. I don't agree with that ruling personally.
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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 07:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Agree, but calling it a fight is a stretch imo. The melee woulda been over without B6's over-reaction.
Maybe. OTOH, A1 instigated it by pushing in the first place. As I recall, if a player's action causes retalliation, it is fighting.

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 08:00pm
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yes i can see that if B1 was the opposing fighter -- however for a player to come off the bench when B1 was gonna let it go and take the 2 ft's + possesion.

That is not fighting on A1 or anything close to that -- I could say instigation if the player that was directly effected hit back -- but if its just couple shoves each then double t's and anything that looks fishy from them again down the road dont wait just give em their walking papers.
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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 09:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee
yes i can see that if B1 was the opposing fighter -- however for a player to come off the bench when B1 was gonna let it go and take the 2 ft's + possesion.

I could say instigation if the player that was directly effected hit back.
Basically, that's the way I looked at it too. The officials were already between A1 and B1. That one was over, so B6 coming in makes it two separate incidents instead of one imo.
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Old Fri Nov 03, 2006, 12:05pm
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I say A1 should hit the showers as well. Pushing a player in the chest with 2 hands is flagrant to me. I would deem that as "a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature" and it is also involved dead ball contact. A1 needs to go.
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Old Fri Nov 03, 2006, 12:07pm
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By the way, great job by B1 in keeping his cool. Maybe he should teach B6 a thing or two.
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Old Fri Nov 03, 2006, 12:10pm
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Could you maybe call this a DOUBLE TECHNICAL since one caused the other...you have a dead ball contact technical by A1, then a flagrant Technical by B6 coming on the floor for fighting? off setting, no freethrows and go with the POI, which is alt possesssion arrow???? just wondering
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Last edited by jritchie; Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 12:14pm.
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Old Fri Nov 03, 2006, 12:17pm
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no you cannot call this a double T -- 2 seperate incidents

A1 pushes B1 -- not flagrant but an unsportinglike T -- its a shove people not a punch or a prelude to a fight (however if B1 responds with anything more than a similar shove like say throw a punch then they both get tossed -- B1 for fighting and A1 for instigating a fight) -- this is the first incident

B1 now lets it go and that is over

B6 now comes off the bench and punches A1 -- seperate incident and this is a fight -- if A1 retaliates then he will be tossed too -- but since only B6 threw a punch hes ejected. 2 Sperate T's and its a false double.

B team shoots 2 then A team shoots 2 and gets possession. remember B coach now has his seatbelt on because B6 got him an indirect.

Junker to call a shove a flagrant is a bit of a reach -- I have seen plenty of shoves and probably 995 of them are just unsportmanlike. Now if the shove is lets say where he drives the player back and drives him to the ground thats different but a shove is just a T IMO depending on how B reacts. If B fights then A is responsible for that whole incident. If B shoves back then double T and we go POI. If B lets is go T on A and we go from there.

Hoever in this case I doubt it would end with B6 -- if this incident happens I will be very suprprised because I will expect something from A team as well because I do not know how I might handle it if I were on the bench and saw the opposition bench player rush the floor and deck my teammate. At the same time if I am on B bench and see my teammate run out I might follow him to get his back. So this is very clear and cut and dry but in reality I CANNOT see it happeing this way.

[edit]JR agrees with me on something -- or should I say I agree with him on something. It is a bit overcast here in SOCAL so maybe hell is freezing over

Last edited by deecee; Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 12:20pm.
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Old Fri Nov 03, 2006, 12:26pm
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Deecee,
I can see where you're coming from, but if the shove pushes a player 5 feet and incites a player to leave the bench, on my floor they would both go. I think this is certainly a "had to be there" call, but it sounds savage and violent in nature to me. I agree that they are 2 separate incidents and with the rest of your post.
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Old Fri Nov 03, 2006, 12:35pm
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but this would refer to then if it was so bad why did B1 just let it go and not say or do anything? I know it could be personality but heres the caveat.

You would now have to T A1 up twice for the same act.

Because in reality this is how it will go

A1 shoves B1 -- tweet T on A1
B1 does nothing
About 3-4 seconds after the Shove out of nowhere comes B6 and socks A1 -- Tweet T and ejection for B6.

You have already called your T on A1 and didn't eject because I have never seen a kid get ejected based solely on a shove. Now you eject B6 and say A1 ejected too. Well you only called a T to begin with now you either have to change to another T or have ejected him when you intially blew your whistle on the T.

Now what if B1 didnt just stand around and shoves A1 back and B6 comes out and socks A1.

So A1 shoves B1 -- B1 shoves back and B6 decks A1.

are all 3 ejected? we have 2 shoves and 1 punch -- this is saying what B6 did was just as bad as what A1 and B1 did. IMO a shove does not equate to a punch on any level.
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Old Fri Nov 03, 2006, 12:50pm
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My post was unclear. If the play looked as bad as what I have in my head, another player pushed 5 feet, I would toss A1 instantly. That type of behavior by a player does not belong in the game of basketball and needs to be addressed early and as harshly as possible. Sitting out a game after an ejection is going to be a much better deterrent in getting this kid to calm down than a simple T.
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Old Fri Nov 03, 2006, 02:09pm
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If b1 retaliates you have to eject both of them becuase the action and reaction are specifically covered in the rule. (I base this off of the severe shove - moved the player 5 feet)
B6 throwing the punch is worse and hopefully the team and or the conference will deal with it more severely than the one game suspension he has coming. Around here I am sure he is going to get at least two and then a lot of the schools will double that.
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Old Fri Nov 03, 2006, 05:23pm
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One thing which I know for sure about this play is that this CANNOT be a double technical foul. The play does not involve TWO opponents committing technical fouls against each other, per 4-19-8b. It involves THREE people and technical fouls by members of opposite teams, so it must be a FALSE double technical foul. (The second of which might actually be a false multiple technical foul by B6. See below.) Therefore, the fouls are going to be penalized in the order in which they occurred, and we are going to have to shoot all of the FTs.

Now I started this thread because I believe that there are two debatable aspects of this situation and I am honestly looking for feedback:
1). Is the first technical foul on the play which is charged to A1 flagrant because of 4-18-2. The rule only says "causes an opponent to retaliate." It does not specify which opponent or that it must be the one who was offended by the original player's action.
2). How many technicals should be charged to B6? Should B6 receive only one flagrant T for leaving the bench area and fighting (8.b.(2) in the penalty section after 10-6) or should there be two Ts charged? The two T option would be one for leaving the confines of the bench area (10-4-5) and one for the actual punch (10-3-9), both of which are flagrant. (Either way the head coach of Team B receives one indirect T and loses the coaching box.)


So we are going to DQ B6 and maybe A1 as well, and shoot either four or six FTs followed by awarding the ball to Team A at the division line opposite the table.

Now what are the opinions on the proper ruling?
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