NCAA question, administration after double fouls

[ChuckElias]

Somebody please help me with these:

While A1's try is in flight, a double personal foul is committed. The ball enters the basket. The official counts the basket, charges teh foul, award no FTs, resumes play with the AP procedure and recycles teh shot clock. Is the official correct?

The answer is yes, and is directly supported by AR 26 on page 143.

So then, what is the difference in this case?

While A1's try is in flight, the officials assess a double direct technical foul. The try is successful. The official rules that the penalties offset each other, awards no FTs, awards Team B the ball and allows Team B to run the end line. Is the official correct?

The answer is again yes! Why do you go to the arrow after a double personal, but not after a double technical? I understand that for double personals, you award the ball back to the team in control and for double T's you award the ball at the POI. But neither team was in control in the first question, and there is no team control at the POI in the second question. So why wouldn't you also go to the arrow after the double T's?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Somebody please help me with these:

The answer is yes, and is directly supported by AR 26 on page 143.

So then, what is the difference in this case?

The answer is again yes! Why do you go to the arrow after a double personal, but not after a double technical? I understand that for double personals, you award the ball back to the team in control and for double T's you award the ball at the POI. But neither team was in control in the first question, and there is no team control at the POI in the second question. So why wouldn't you also go to the arrow after the double T's?

Could it be that in the second play the double foul are technical fouls and the game is resumed from the point of interuption.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Could it be that in the second play the double foul are technical fouls and the game is resumed from the point of interuption.

Absolutely. But it seems to me that the POI is while the shot is in the air. There would then be no team control, so you'd still be forced to use the arrow.

[ocreferee]

On page 131 Rule 10-8-3 states "When double direct technical fouls are committed, no free throws shall be awarded. Play shall resume from the point of interruption."

Of course, I'm with Chuck... the POI is during a time of no team control and the POI definition doesn't cover what to do when there is no team control.

Chuck...where did these plays and rulings come from?

[rockyroad]

Chuck, there's no team control, but since the ball went in, the POI would be team B getting the ball for a throw-in anywhere on the endline...just as if it was a single T called...example: A4 goes up for a shot, ball in air, and A4 feels he/she was fouled - turns to you and yells "Call the *&$%^#@ foul"...you, of course, T the player, count the basket, allow anyone from B to go to the other end and shoot two, and then come back and give B the ball for the throw-in under the basket because that is where play was interrupted...make sense?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rockyroad
give B the ball for the throw-in under the basket because that is where play was interrupted...make sense?

Honestly, Rocky, no it doesn't. The game was interrupted while the shot was in the air. Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what the POI is in this situation (obviously ), but it seems to me that the POI occurs when there is no team control. How can you blow the whistle when there's no team control and then say that the game was interrupted when the ball was B's disposal after the made basket? I don't get it. And NCAA 4-50 doesn't help, b/c it specifically says you give the ball "to the team that was in control" at the time the game was interrupted.

[Jay R]

I'm with you Chuck. If the same situation occurs with a double foul, you go to the arrow. How can a double tech produce a different POI?

[Lotto]

Originally posted by Jay R
I'm with you Chuck. If the same situation occurs with a double foul, you go to the arrow. How can a double tech produce a different POI?

It doesn't produce a different POI, but the penalties for double personal and double technical fouls are different.

Double personal-Award to the team in conrol with no reset of the shot personal foul clock (In all other cases, use the alternating-possession arrow with reset of shot clock.)

Double technical-Resume at POI.

As far as the original question is concerned, check out

Rule 7-5 A.R. 13. The coach from Team A is assessed a direct technical foul (a) during a try for goal while the ball is in flight; (b) during a throw-in; (c) during a jump ball. RULING: Any player from Team B shall attempt the two free throws for the direct technical foul. In (a), although there was no team control when the whistle was blown, if the try is successful, play shall resume with the awarding of the ball to the team not credited with the score.

Although this is only a single technical foul, POI ought to be the same for a double technical.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Honestly, Rocky, no it doesn't. The game was interrupted while the shot was in the air. Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what the POI is in this situation.

Chuck -- Everyone knows I'm NOT an expert in NCAA stuff, but it appears to me as though D.J. is saying that the POI occurs when the ball becomes dead -- and that the ball isn't dead until the basket is made or missed. If the shot was missed, I'm conjecturing, then you would go to the arrow. I'm extrapolating this from his case of a single T. Once the ball is in the air, the foul, even an A team foul, doesn't make the ball dead immediately. At least, I think that's what he's saying.

D.J. -- Just for my own edification, isn't this different from Fed? In fed, if I remember correctly, if the shooter fouls while the ball is in the air, the ball becomes dead, and the shot, if made, doesn't count, right? Another offensive foul away from the ball doesn't have the same effect, right?

[Back In The Saddle]

Seems to me this is pretty much the same discussion we had about a week ago about whether to count the basket on an inadvertant whistle while a successful try is in flight. And wasn't the bottom line pretty much the same? You count the bucket and award the ball to the team that would normally have gotten the throw in.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
Seems to me this is pretty much the same discussion we had about a week ago about whether to count the basket on an inadvertant whistle while a successful try is in flight. And wasn't the bottom line pretty much the same? You count the bucket and award the ball to the team that would normally have gotten the throw in.

So, why is the double personal foul different -- why not say the B had "control" after the made basket and give the ball to B instead of using the arrow? Shouldn't the rules on these (Double Ps and Double Ts) fouls be reasonably consistent?

Originally posted by rainmaker
D.J. -- Just for my own edification, isn't this different from Fed? In fed, if I remember correctly, if the shooter fouls while the ball is in the air, the ball becomes dead, and the shot, if made, doesn't count, right? Another offensive foul away from the ball doesn't have the same effect, right?

If the foul is by the airborne shooter (or the shooter before releasing the ball), then the ball is immediately dead in FED and NCAA W. Not in NCAA M, for the airborne shooter.

If it's a foul by the player who shot, but has returned to the floor, then it's the same as any offensive foul -- the ball isn't dead until the try ends, under all codes.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by bob jenkins


If it's a foul by the player who shot, but has returned to the floor, then it's the same as any offensive foul -- the ball isn't dead until the try ends, under all codes.

So....

if the shooter swears at you while he's in the air, the ball is dead, but if it's after he lands, the ball is still live until the try ends?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by rainmaker

So....

if the shooter swears at you while he's in the air, the ball is dead, but if it's after he lands, the ball is still live until the try ends?

I'm sorry, Juulie. I thought we were talking about personal fouls (which, when committed by an airborne shooter are PC fouls, except NCAA M).

If it's a T, then the "airborne shooter" rule doesn't apply. IF the ball is in the air, the ball doesn't become dead until the try ends -- the try will count if it's successful.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I'm sorry, Juulie. I thought we were talking about personal fouls (which, when committed by an airborne shooter are PC fouls, except NCAA M).

If it's a T, then the "airborne shooter" rule doesn't apply. IF the ball is in the air, the ball doesn't become dead until the try ends -- the try will count if it's successful.

Thanks, Bob. Here's a related question. If a Team A player commits a T away from the ball, while the ball is in the air, is that the same as a personal foul -- shot counts if it goes? Or is the ball dead at that moment? I'm talking Fed here.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
So, why is the double personal foul different -- why not say the B had "control" after the made basket and give the ball to B instead of using the arrow? Shouldn't the rules on these (Double Ps and Double Ts) fouls be reasonably consistent?

So do you share my confusion here, Bob, or are you merely playing Devil's Advocate? I can live with "T's, you can run the endline; personals go to the arrow". But I'd like some rationale. Is it "just because"? I hate that.