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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 10:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehcco
I am a new official and am trying to understand the subtleties of the rules so please be patient.

I would cite 2-10-1. Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertantly set aside and results in:
d. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.

The rule I thought the official set aside was 7-1-2d. The ball is out of bounds when it touches or is touched by:

d. The Ceiling, overhead equipment, or supports.

Because the situation says the official "allows play to continue" I thought it meant he/she saw the ball contact the wire and inadvertantly set aside 7-1-2d. Perhaps I am reading too much into the question but why would the official allow play to continue?
Let us say you have a traveling call that was missed and you have a shot after the missed violation that goes in. Then the coach wants to call a timeout to make sure the basket is cancelled because we missed the traveling violation that we never called. YOU CANNOT DO THAT. If the violation was not called, then you cannot go back and say, "Well the basket should not be called because we never called the travel." That is not the purpose of the correctable error rule.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 10:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
In order for there to be a score, a live ball must pass through the net. The ball was dead when it the support. Therefore, aren't you erroneously counting a score?
Oh? And how did the ball become dead when it hit the support, Karnac? Rule 6-7 is what you're looking for. That's the rule that tells you exactly when a live ball becomes dead. Now, pick out something from R6-7 that tells us why the ball became dead when it hit the support.

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 10:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Let us say you have a traveling call that was missed and you have a shot after the missed violation that goes in. Then the coach wants to call a timeout to make sure the basket is cancelled because we missed the traveling violation that we never called. YOU CANNOT DO THAT. If the violation was not called, then you cannot go back and say, "Well the basket should not be called because we never called the travel." That is not the purpose of the correctable error rule.

Peace
Agreed. In the officials' judgement, there wasn't a travel. That's a good example of a judgement call.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 10:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater
Try 2-10-1 it does say Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertantly set aside and results in:
d. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.
Yup, now what rule was inadvertantly set aside? You tell me. Cite a rule.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 10:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
I absolutely agree - we will never go back and change judgement calls. But, in Bob's scenario, this wasn't a judgement call. The T saw the ball hit the support, and ruled it to be in play. Where's the judgement?
What do you mean this was not a judgment call? If you see the ball hit the wire/support of anything that would be considered out of bounds, that is a judgment call all the way. There are times when it looks like it hits the supports but it does not. Then to top it off, it was not called when it took place. Then we allow a timeout to discuss a violation that was not called. I am sorry, it is too late.

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 10:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Oh? And how did the ball become dead when it hit the support, Karnac?
errr....it didn't became dead because a rule was inadvertently set aside that resulted in the erroneous counting of a score...

geeze, that looks familiar. Where have I read that before...?
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 10:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Oh? And how did the ball become dead when it hit the support, Karnac? Rule 6-7 is what you're looking for. That's the rule that tells you exactly when a live ball becomes dead. Now, pick out something from R6-7 that tells us why the ball became dead when it hit the support.

Please note that "Shut Up" will not be eligible for part marks.
6-7-9 - Ball becomes dead, or reamins dead, when a violation (as in 9-2 thru 9-13) occurs.
9-3-1 - A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds.
And, finally, what caused the ball to be out of bounds?
9-1-2 (c) and (d) - The ball is out of bounds when it touches or is touched by ...supports...

And finally, Karnac says, "May a diseased yak leave a present in your sock drawer."
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Last edited by M&M Guy; Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 11:01am.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 11:01am
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I would not call this situation a correctable error. If the coach wants to talk about it, I'd explain that if it did hit the wire, we just blew a violation such as travelling, apologize and assure him we won't miss it again. Then in the locker room at the half or after the game, I'd make sure to look at the oob rules with the official that didn't know the support wire was oob.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 11:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
What do you mean this was not a judgment call? If you see the ball hit the wire/support of anything that would be considered out of bounds, that is a judgment call all the way. There are times when it looks like it hits the supports but it does not. Then to top it off, it was not called when it took place. Then we allow a timeout to discuss a violation that was not called. I am sorry, it is too late.

Peace
Go back and read Bob's play. There's no judgement involved. The T saw the ball hit the support.

Now, in real life, if I'm the L I'm going to talk to my (obviously inexperienced) T and see if there's a chance judgement might be involved, which gives us a way out of this mess. Then, yes, we do not go back and change a possible judgement call.

But what if the T is absolutely certain the ball hit the support. No question about it. What rule do you use to tell the one coach, "Yep, the ball definitely hit the support, but we're going to count the basket."?
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 11:17am
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try this.....

This rule would apply when the ball hits the wire, the official blows it dead, the ball is awarded out of bounds to team B, but the scorer counts the basket anyway. "Sorry, I was talking to my wife on the cell phone, and didn't realize what the call was. I thought you had called goaltending or something. My bad."

As others have said, counting the score in this case is not the error. The mistake is a failure by the official to call a violation.There is no provision for going back in time to call a missed violation.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 11:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
6-7-9 - Ball becomes dead, or reamins dead, when a violation (as in 9-2 thru 9-13) occurs.
9-3-1 - A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds.
And, finally, what caused the ball to be out of bounds?
9-1-2 (c) and (d) - The ball is out of bounds when it touches or is touched by ...supports...
And what violation under 9-3-1 and 9-1-2(c&d) got called?

How did the ball become dead, Karnac, if no violation was called?

Again, did the ball actually become dead when it hit the guy wire?

And.....why do they call it a "guy wire" anyway? Why don't they call it a "chick wire"? Not fair! Does Rainmaker know about this?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 11:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
This rule would apply when the ball hits the wire, the official blows it dead, the ball is awarded out of bounds to team B, but the scorer counts the basket anyway. "Sorry, I was talking to my wife on the cell phone, and didn't realize what the call was. I thought you had called goaltending or something. My bad."
That's a book keeping error.
Quote:

As others have said, counting the score in this case is not the error. The mistake is a failure by the official to call a violation.There is no provision for going back in time to call a missed violation.
The part you're missing is there was no missed violation in Bob's sitch. The T admitted the ball hit the wire but he didn't realize that made the ball OOB.

He inadvertently set aside a rule leading to the erroneous counting of a score.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 11:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy

What rule do you use to tell the one coach, "Yep, the ball definitely hit the support, but we're going to count the basket."?
A better question might be to ask what rule you should use to tell either coach, "Yep, the ball definitely hit the support, but we're not going to count the basket."

I'm still waiting for an answer to that one.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 11:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
The part you're missing is there was no missed violation in Bob's sitch. The T admitted the ball hit the wire but he didn't realize that made the ball OOB.
Oh? If it wasn't missed, then it musta got called. Right?

Sooooooo.....when did it get called? When did the whistle blow and the wire-hitting violation get called? When it hit the wire? Next Tuesday?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 31, 2006, 11:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Go back and read Bob's play. There's no judgement involved. The T saw the ball hit the support.
Calling all violations are judgment calls. Part of that judgment is whether we see it or not. It is still a judgment call and part of it being a judgment call is recognizing what you saw, and then calling it. I have missed travel calls, carry calls and even out of bounds calls when I "thought" I saw something and I never blew the whistle. I do not understand why because he saw the ball hit the support, means there was no judgment involved? Why did he not call the violation if he clearly saw a violation committed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Now, in real life, if I'm the L I'm going to talk to my (obviously inexperienced) T and see if there's a chance judgement might be involved, which gives us a way out of this mess. Then, yes, we do not go back and change a possible judgement call.

But what if the T is absolutely certain the ball hit the support. No question about it. What rule do you use to tell the one coach, "Yep, the ball definitely hit the support, but we're going to count the basket."?
I would tell this young official, when you see a violation, you need to call a violation. You cannot take several minutes later and decide you now need to enforce a violation that was never called. I would tell them to chalk it up as a learning experience and next time make the call and not wait to make the call.

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