Penalty for Delay

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by Rick Durkee

I think the issue is the time limit to make the ruling. The Correctable error rule addresses limitations on the time limits to assess the penalties or correct an improperly executed penalty.

The original situation doesn't specify that the officials did or did not report the delay.

I would agree this is not correctable if the officials did not report the delay to the table. (In essence, a no call)

However, if the officials reported the second delay, this should be a correctable error situation.

If you believe it is not, please explain.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

However, if the officials reported the second delay, this should be a correctable error situation.

If you believe it is not, please explain.

I don't think it's correctable b/c there are no FTs awarded for a warning. If the official had issued the T, then got distracted somehow and forgot to give the FTs, then that's correctable. But the foul was never called. So no FTs were merited.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

I don't think it's correctable b/c there are no FTs awarded for a warning. If the official had issued the T, then got distracted somehow and forgot to give the FTs, then that's correctable. But the foul was never called. So no FTs were merited.

Very interesting.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

I don't think it's correctable b/c there are no FTs awarded for a warning. If the official had issued the T, then got distracted somehow and forgot to give the FTs, then that's correctable. But the foul was never called. So no FTs were merited.

Just seems wrong to me. You've issued the second warning which should result in free throws and you catch it in time.

I'm sorry but I'm going to 2-10-1: I have an error in a rule being inadvertently set aside that results in the failure to award a merited free throw. I'm shooting free throws.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Then why do we have Correctable Errors in the first place?

Failure to call a foul or violation that should be called is not a correctable error. It is either called at the time of the infraction or it is not called.

Correctable errors all deal with the penalty portion of a called foul (or counting a basket as the incorrect number of points on a try).

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Failure to call a foul or violation that should be called is not a correctable error. It is either called at the time of the infraction or it is not called.

Correctable errors all deal with the penalty portion of a called foul (or counting a basket as the incorrect number of points on a try).

Apples and Oranges.

We have already established that we called and reported the second warning. In your example there is no call.

By rule the second warning results in a technical foul. A rule which was inadvertently set aside and results in free throws.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Just seems wrong to me. You've issued the second warning which should result in free throws and you catch it in time.

I'm sorry but I'm going to 2-10-1: I have an error in a rule being inadvertently set aside that results in the failure to award a merited free throw. I'm shooting free throws.

What if a dribbler gets bumped (hard and what should have been an obvious foul) but you call travelling instead. You give the ball to the other team. As the other team is dribbling the ball, their coach requests a timeout for a correctable error. He questions the possible foul that occured just prior to the travel. You agree that you should have called a foul. Would you even entertain that as a possible correctable error? It's not all that different from what you're suggesting.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What if a dribbler gets bumped (hard and what should have been an obvious foul) but you call travelling instead. You give the ball to the other team. As the other team is dribbling the ball, their coach requests a timeout for a correctable error. He questions the possible foul that occured just prior to the travel. You agree that you should have called a foul. Would you even entertain that as a possible correctable error? It's not all that different from what you're suggesting.

Now we've got Apples and Steak

The official called a warning for delay. It's the second. That's a T with FT's which was inadvertently set aside. That, by rule, is an error made by an official which should be correctable.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Apples and Oranges.

We have already established that we called and reported the second warning. In your example there is no call.

By rule the second warning results in a technical foul. A rule which was inadvertently set aside and results in free throws.

You make some good points. But, what about a player who enters who is not in the book? If the scorer adds the player, and the ball becomes live, it's too late to penalize.

Or, what about team members wearing illegal uniforms (e.g., with a manufacturer's logo on the jersey)? This can only be penalized as the player enters the game. Once the player is in, it's too late (unless the player leaves and reenters), even though the rule continues to be violated.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You make some good points. But, what about a player who enters who is not in the book? If the scorer adds the player, and the ball becomes live, it's too late to penalize.

Or, what about team members wearing illegal uniforms (e.g., with a manufacturer's logo on the jersey)? This can only be penalized as the player enters the game. Once the player is in, it's too late (unless the player leaves and reenters), even though the rule continues to be violated.

Now you make some good points. But, what about a request for an excess time-out which is "Penalized when discovered" (10-7 Penalty).

I'm just thinking of the situation when you report a foul to the table (you don't realize it's the seventh). You resume play, then within the time limits you find out it was the seventh foul, so you shoot the one and one.

Similarly, you report the delay (you don't realize it's the second). You resume play, then within the time limits you find out it was the second delay. I think you shoot the FTs.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Or, what about team members wearing illegal uniforms (e.g., with a manufacturer's logo on the jersey)? This can only be penalized as the player enters the game. Once the player is in, it's too late (unless the player leaves and reenters), even though the rule continues to be violated.

HMMMM. I'm not buying this. Penalized when discovered is a phrase that seems to apply here, and with a few of the other sitch's in this thread.

I gotta keep a rule book with me when I read this forum. My head hurts.

[Raymond]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing but I think here is the comparison Kajun is trying to put across:

• common foul committed (7th team foul) but scorer doesn't notify officials one-and-one should be shot. Failure to award merited free throws. Correctable error situation

• 2nd delay warning administered. Scorer doesn't notify officials that this is 2nd warning and technical foul should be shot. Is this a failure to award merited free throws?

Kajun, Would this be the concept your are trying to get across?

Oops, just saw that you already posed the same scenario. At least give me credit for reading your mind.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Kajun, Would this be the concept your are trying to get across?

Oops, just saw that you already posed the same scenario. At least give me credit for reading your mind.

Thanks for the P.S. I thought it was my Kajun English coming out again.

[Camron Rust]

You make some very good points Kajun and my even be correct (I have a suspicion that you may be...but I'm not yet convinced).

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Now you make some good points. But, what about a request for an excess time-out which is "Penalized when discovered" (10-7 Penalty)..

But that is only penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live after the timeout. Once the ball is live, it's too late.

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

I'm just thinking of the situation when you report a foul to the table (you don't realize it's the seventh). You resume play, then within the time limits you find out it was the seventh foul, so you shoot the one and one.
)

In that case, the foul was called but not properly penalized.

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Similarly, you report the delay (you don't realize it's the second). You resume play, then within the time limits you find out it was the second delay. I think you shoot the FTs.

The rules specify a foul should be called but it wasn't...not quite the same as being called and improperly penalized. There are a lot of things that the rules say should be a technical foul but we don't always call them...can we change our mind during the next possession and go back and call a T on any of them?

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

But that is only penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live after the timeout. Once the ball is live, it's too late.?

That's not what 10-7 Penalty says. It says "Penalized when discovered."

The rules specify a foul should be called but it wasn't...not quite the same as being called and improperly penalized. There are a lot of things that the rules say should be a technical foul but we don't always call them...can we change our mind during the next possession and go back and call a T on any of them?

I see your point, but my point is that we intended to call the rules infraction as evidenced by the warning. The only reason we didn't issue the T was because we didn't realize it was the second warning. We didn't consciously make a decision not to issue the T. We didn't issue it because the scorer didn't inform us that the warning was the second. Just like the 7th foul that we didn't shoot on.

And I have to keep going back to the definition of a correctable error, "Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in: a) Failure to award a merited free throw." which provides guidance in this situation.

I see a difference in this situation and not calling a common foul, technical foul or any other rule violations, because we actually made the call (the warning) but applied the rule incorrectly and now have an opportunity to correct it.