Delay after TO

[physicsref]

In the case book/rule book, there are many examples regarding A failing to return to the court in a timely manner following a TO. (Put the ball on the floor and start counting).

What is acceptable when B delays and A is ready? Do you just hand the ball in to A while B is in the huddle trying to decide what to say on the count of three? Do you record a warning in the book for delay without letting A get the cheap hoop? Do you just continue trying to drag the delinquent team out or the huddle? etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Thanks for your suggestions.

[Mark Padgett]

I guarantee that if you give the ball to A and they get the cheap hoop, B won't do it again. I also guarantee you'll get yelled at by coach B.

But then, so what?!

[BktBallRef]

We consistently follow this procedure and we don't run into any problems.

At the second horn, blow your whistle.

Mentallly count two seconds.

Blow your whistle again.

Put the ball on the floor, if the offense is delaying.

Hand the ball to the thrower, if the defense is delaying.

As Mark said, you'll only have to do it once!


[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 3rd, 2001 at 03:19 PM]

[ScottParks]

I guess I don't understand why you would do this at the first horn. In NFHS, I thought the first horn was given 15 seconds (full) or 10 seconds (30) before the time they are to be on the court ready to play (2nd horn).

[BktBallRef]

My bad. it should read the second or last horn.

[crew]

i would give b a delay of game warning. they do it again delay of game tech. giving a team a cheap score is just.................cheap! try to do every thing possible to keep the game fair. would you give team A the ball in a tie game with 3 sec. on the clock 4th qtr. if yes and i was your partner i would blow my whistle and stop you!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by crew
i would give b a delay of game warning. they do it again delay of game tech. giving a team a cheap score is just.................cheap! try to do every thing possible to keep the game fair. would you give team A the ball in a tie game with 3 sec. on the clock 4th qtr. if yes and i was your partner i would blow my whistle and stop you!

You bet I would!! If B delays, it's not me that lost the game for them!! Is it fair for B to get warning after help after grace when A is following the rules and remaining in the spirit and flow of the game? Sure, A is getting an advantage, but it's not an illegal advantage. In fact, it's an illegal advantage for B if the referee bends the rules so that B can finish its now illegal huddle. If my partner blew the whistle and stopped me, I'd have words to my assignor later!

[crew]

it is not bending the rules it is managing the game. give them the cheap shot without warning in any league i am in and you will not have to worry about talking to the supervisor.........he will talk to you!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by crew
it is not bending the rules it is managing the game. give them the cheap shot without warning in any league i am in and you will not have to worry about talking to the supervisor.........he will talk to you!

Managing the game is giving B every opportunity participate in a fair and reasonable way. It is what BktballRef said: blowing the whistle, hollering "White Ball!!" blowing again and all those other things we do. After all that, you can't say the "cheap shot" is without warning. The Resuming Play Procedure doesn't give any room at all to let them off with a warning. If A is there and ready, and the ref has followed the procedure, what with two horns, and two whistles, it's B's clear choice, not my bad attitude.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by crew
i would give b a delay of game warning. they do it again delay of game tech. giving a team a cheap score is just.................cheap! try to do every thing possible to keep the game fair. would you give team A the ball in a tie game with 3 sec. on the clock 4th qtr. if yes and i was your partner i would blow my whistle and stop you!

First, under both NFHS and NCAA rules, the resume play protocols are to be used to put the ball back into play after time outs. They apply only for putting the ball back into play after a timeout.

Second, there are only three official delay of game warnings, and they are only for games played under NFHS rules. These delay of game warnings are found in R4-S46-A1,
A2, and A3. None of these delay of game warnings have anything to do with the resume play protocols for after a timeout. After a timeout, the game is resumes per these protocols and there are no delay of game warnings involved.

Third, we will have a very good pregame discussion about the correct way to handle the resume play protocols. And that we are going to follow them and not do something that is incorrect per the rules.

Fourth, giving the ball to Team A for a throw-in when Team B is delaying their return to the court after a timeout is not a cheap score. Some preventative officiating is required in your pregame with the captains; the captains are ultimately responsible for getting their teams out of the huddle after a timeout, and you have to let them know that you expect them to break their huddles on the first horn because the ball is going to be put into play after the second horn. Good officiating dictates that if the team is breaking is coming out onto the floor during the second horn you use good common sense about putting the ball into play. But if the second horn sounds and the administering official sounds his whistle and Team B is still in its huddle and A1 is ready to make the throw-in, put the ball into play. Team B will let it happen only once. The real problem is when you have not had any problems with the teams for the entire game and then you have a team delay after a timeout when the score is tied and only three seconds left in the game. You really want to go that extra second or two before you put the ball into play after the second horn.

Fifth, even when the score is tied with three seconds left in the game, there comes a time when you have grab the tail by the tail and face the situation. Which means if you have gone the extra second and Team B is still in the huddle then put the ball in play. If the ball is not put into play then you award Team B for violating the rules and that puts Team A at a disadvantage.

Sixth, if I have gone the extra second and you blow the whistle, after I have put the ball at the disposable of Team A for the throw-in, to prevent Team A from getting a cheap score, you are are going to find yourself in big trouble with me after the game. Nothing steams me more when I am ready to put the ball into play and my partner will whistle me to stop play because the opposing coach tells a player to report into the game. I am ready to put the ball into play and the substitute is just getting up from the bench. This is not allowed under the rules but far too many officials delay the ball from becoming live because they want to appear to be a nice guy and let the substitute into the game.

We get ourselves into trouble when we attempt to use common sense without using the rules as our guide.

[crew]

i would still stop you.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by crew
it is not bending the rules it is managing the game. give them the cheap shot without warning in any league i am in and you will not have to worry about talking to the supervisor.........he will talk to you!

It is bending the rules. If you have to bend rules, then you do not know how to manage the game. Right from the beginning of the game, you have to make sure that the teams know that they will not be allowed to circumvent the rules and you will see that they will comply. John Cloughty has always said that there is no such thing as a gut call; either you make the call or you do not. If you want to bend the rules to allow a team to circumvent the rules, then maybe officiating is not the avocation for you.

[dblref]

I'm with rainmaker, BBRef and Mark on this one -- it happpended to me last night in a boys JV game. Team A is up by 15-16 points throughout most of the game. In 2nd half, they started delaying coming back from TO. Told coach/assistant/captains that they were to be back ready to play before 2nd horn. My partner also told them. Team B was always back and ready to play. When it happened again, I blew my whistle, counted 2 seconds, put the ball on the floor and started 5 second count. At about the 4 second count, Team A realized that the ball was on the floor and came running out. Tweet! Too late, 5 second count. No problems the rest of the game. Were we consistent - yes. Was it preventative officiating - I think so (we did warn them). Did Team A finally learn -- you bet! My partner and I discussed a similar situation in pre-game, so we were both aware of what we would do.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by crew
it is not bending the rules it is managing the game. give them the cheap shot without warning in any league i am in and you will not have to worry about talking to the supervisor.........he will talk to you!

Then he doesn't no much about the game of basketball.

So, if A delays in returning from the TO, according to 7-5-1, we put the ball on the floor and begin the 5 second count.

But when B delays, we wait and wait and wait, and then if they don't come to play, give them a delay oif game warning. Sorry crew, I don't mean to offend you but that's horsesh*t and it smells just that bad.

There's nothing cheap about it. B gets 3 warnings before you hand the ball to A. Let me review what I posted.

First horn sounds.
The official at B's bench says "First horn, A's ball!" to B's bench. That's B's first warning.

At the second horn, blow your whistle.
That's B's second warning.

Mentallly count two seconds.

Blow your whistle again.
That's B's third warning.

Hand the ball to the thrower, if the defense is delaying.
That's their last warning. I guarantee that won't need another warning.

My supervisor will be talking to me if I don't follow this procedure, as it is required by our NCHSAA handbook.

[physicsref]

Thanks all for the suggestions. This goes with my gut for what I should do (hand the ball in). I feel this is something that does need some consistency from official to official, though. Else, one might be known as "That butthead official who hands the ball in before we're on the floor". As the posts mentioned, though, there is ample warning...thanks again.