Delay on B?

[dumbref]

B has no time outs, A is in a hurry-up just before the half with the clock running. We go through our normal process of spotting the ball making sure the down marker is in place and all officials are ready. Give the ready and A is in position to snap the ball. B starts calling for a time out! I yell - you don't have any! About 2 seconds later, I hear my LJ blowing his whisle and he is stopping the clock.

When I realized he is honoring the TO, I drop my flag for delay of game on B. We penalized 5 and did not start the clock with the ready. Would anyone have handled it differently - besides shooting the LJ.

And yes we check TO's remaining after each TO - B used their last one in the first QRT and my LJ just had a brain *art.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by dumbref
B has no time outs, A is in a hurry-up just before the half with the clock running. We go through our normal process of spotting the ball making sure the down marker is in place and all officials are ready. Give the ready and A is in position to snap the ball. B starts calling for a time out! I yell - you don't have any! About 2 seconds later, I hear my LJ blowing his whisle and he is stopping the clock.

When I realized he is honoring the TO, I drop my flag for delay of game on B. We penalized 5 and did not start the clock with the ready. Would anyone have handled it differently - besides shooting the LJ.

And yes we check TO's remaining after each TO - B used their last one in the first QRT and my LJ just had a brain *art.

REPLY: FIrst...I think shooting the LJ would be a bit extreme, but a jury of officials wouldn't convict you in this case. However, penalizing B for delay is not correct. There is no foul for calling an excessive TO. It's up to the crew to know that B has none remaining and just ignore their request. In this case, I would inform both teams that the clock was stopped inadvertently and that you will start it on the RFP which I wouldn't waste any time blowing.

[mcrowder]

This is not basketball - no foul for this.

I've called delay on B twice - once for intentionally hitting the ball after I'd spotted it. One for not getting out of the timeout huddle in anywhere near a timely fashion.

[andy1033]

all officials should know b does not have any timeouts left an ignore their request. As you said explain that you will start the clock on RFP and go.

[dumbref]

Originally posted by Bob M.

REPLY: FIrst...I think shooting the LJ would be a bit extreme, but a jury of officials wouldn't convict you in this case. However, penalizing B for delay is not correct. There is no foul for calling an excessive TO. It's up to the crew to know that B has none remaining and just ignore their request. In this case, I would inform both teams that the clock was stopped inadvertently and that you will start it on the RFP which I wouldn't waste any time blowing.

Thanks - I had a faulty brain cell kick in and should have known better. I didn't feel good about it at the time - that's why I made the post. After doing some re-reading of the book and your posts, I completely agree.

It's amazing the junk that gets stored in you brain after 34 years! Most of the time, I have to screw something up to get rid of it. I don't do round ball so that was not the problem. I just hope somebody else learns from my mistake!

[OnlyRefFB]

While I agree with the others that the LJ should not have granted the time-out (under 3-5-5), I disagree that this cannot be ruled delay of game. Just because the LJ made a mistake does not dismiss the actions by B.

I think that under 3-6-2(f) a five yard delay of game penalty can be appropriate. Judgement call? Yes...But that's why we get the big bucks.

(Fed 3-6-2: Action or inaction which prevents promptness in putting the ball in play is delay of game. This includes:
(f) Any other conduct which unduly prolongs the game.)

[cougar729]

So your going to penalize a team when it was the officials mistake for calling the timeout? That's not a good practice

[OnlyRefFB]

Does an inadvertant whistle cause a late hit not be penalized?

In answer to cougar729's question, I might penalize team B for requesting a charged time out when they have none remaining as Team B's action might have unduly prolonged the game.

The officials mistake does not excuse the mistake by Team B.

Again, this is a judgement call, but I think 3-6-2(f) does provide coverage under the rules for a delay of game penalty on B.

What if Team A noticed the time-out called by B and relaxed expecting the clock to stop? That might put A at a disadvantage.

I would also like to emphasis that I never said I would throw the flag for delay, just that 3-6-2(f) may allow it.

The actual game situation would dictate whether I threw my flag or not and there is not enough information in this example to make a definitive response.

[mcrowder]

Now that's a stretch. Nevermind that it was not B's actions, but the official's actions that delayed the game... if you want to blame the official's error on Team B and penalize them I guess that's your choice, even if not supported by rule, clinic, caseplay, or training film.

"The officials mistake does not excuse the mistake by Team B."

Interesting take, since the "mistake" by team B is not a penalizable one.

"The actual game situation would dictate whether I threw my flag or not..." - instead of the rulebook, of course. Good call.

And the Non-Sequitur Award goes to your mention of IW, as a completely irrelevant red herring.

[dumbref]

Originally posted by OnlyRefFB
While I agree with the others that the LJ should not have granted the time-out (under 3-5-5), I disagree that this cannot be ruled delay of game. Just because the LJ made a mistake does not dismiss the actions by B.

I think that under 3-6-2(f) a five yard delay of game penalty can be appropriate. Judgement call? Yes...But that's why we get the big bucks.

(Fed 3-6-2: Action or inaction which prevents promptness in putting the ball in play is delay of game. This includes:
(f) Any other conduct which unduly prolongs the game.)

I looked at 3-6-2f as a justification also. The problem "prevents promptness in putting the ball in play" - the RFP had been given so B's action did not prevent the RFP. It was the officials that stopped the clock in error.

I do feel that A was put at disadvantage though:

1. The defense was calling the timeout because it was not ready for a no-huddle and could not get organized. Our stopping the clock allowed them to get set.

2. A was set and the snap was imminent. While we re-set the 25 sec. clock, they will loose time on the game clock. Maybe not much but some. Faced with the situation again, I would follow Bob M.’s suggestion with one alteration. I would allow A to get set before the RFP and winding the clock. I would only do that if they were set before the clock was stopped.

That may not be by rule either - but it is as fair as I know how to make it.

[Jim S]

OK, you're not going to be able to give back the "advantage" that B gained by being ready for the next play.
What you can do is give back the time on the clock. Put the seconds lost (and maybe 1 more) back, make sure the offensive captain knows that you're going to start the clock on the whistle ("and be sure to be on the line and ready"). Then hold the RFP until they get there and are set. At least to the point where they were beore the whistle.
Now you have deleted the situation. No one has to have a flag, or have yardage marked off.

The action that caused the problem was not B calling for a T.O., it was the L.J.'s mistake by granting it. B should not be flagged for that mistake. The R knows the principle, otherwise he would have flagged B when they first called for the T.O. If the act was a foul it has to be called whether or not an official makes a mistake and blows the whistle.

Note: An inadvertant whistle shouldn't even be mentioned here. An IW only occurs during a down. Not before or after.

[Texas Aggie]

NCAA: an official can deem this an unfair act and take ANY action he deems equitable. I would include running time off the clock if done deliberately.

[mcrowder]

Aggie - have you had someone actually suggest that in clinics? I've heard exactly the opposite here in Dallas, in fact just 3 weeks ago this was specifically addressed in a breakout session. I can't see this being called an unfair act unless it was blatantly obvious that that B was trying to confuse team A, which would be quite a stretch.

A Team B player simply asking for time out when they don't have any is NOT a foul. It doesn't BECOME a foul after an official mistakenly stops the clock either. Again - this is not basketball. If the NCAA wanted this to be a foul, I'm sure they would write it into the book.

[booker227]

After the permissible charged three timeouts, an additional timeout will not be granted unless it is for:

an injured player
repair to equipemnt
review of misinterpretation of rule

It's not a delay of game penalty, but simply a request that is not granted

[don't move]

Funny, I had this happen in a varsity game just this past Friday night: Score is tied 28-28 with 15 seconds left in the game. Neither team has any timeouts left. 1st and 10 on B's 30. A spikes the ball, I kill the clock, signal to HL that it will be 2nd down, down holder is having problems with the box which HL is tending to, I look up and see the head coach of team A (HL's side) and a water girl headed to the middle of the field! No one called time out, there were none to give, apparently the coach thought spiking the ball gave him a time out. I immediately ran him back, told him there was no time out, he was fine with that, but team B's coach was livid. I did not throw a flag. B's coach was mad at my LJ for not flagging the coach all the way across the field, for being out there, and of course mad at me. I explained to B's coach that it was our fault that A's coach was coming out on the field, that he gained no advantage since he never really got to the huddle, (although he was at about the hash marks) and that I was going to let the kids decide who wins the game and not let the outcome be affected by our mistake. B's coach wasn't happy. (Team B won in 1st overtime). How would you guys have handled it?