Was there a resolution in Kentucky?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kevzebra

Not really. There are two ways that we assign refs for districts and regions here in good Ole KY. One can find another association in which to trade refs with (yyyuuuuuukkkkkkk) or you can stay within your own region. The local assigning secretary has knowledge of who the best are in each association, so it really isn't an issue.

The reason I said this could be a conflict of interest, it seems to me that the local assigning secretary can assign his/her friends and not recommend the best official. Now do I feel they should have some imput? Of course they should, but they should not be the one making the actual assigning. That should be someone independent that does not have a regular interaction with those officials in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Kevzebra

There are also two different rating systems here in KY. We use a committee in ours, made up of four coaches from each region (we service two) two from each gender. They meet and decide who is qualified from the association and then the secretary assigns the games from there.

The other way is the good ole point system, still used by the majority of the regions. Officials are rated 0-20 points by each coach and then the secretary has 20 points for each as well. Both systems have flaws and politics probably will never be totally purged from either system, but the committee system seems to work well. One does not know who the coaches are, so you aren't sure if he/she saw you or not during the season.

I am not saying that all systems are perfect. I just think the system that KY has produced was part of the reason this whole thing blew up, based on what I have read and what some sources told me. Even if an official is qualified by all standards, it gives the appearance of something that is not that way. I am glad I do not live in such a system. I think this is why there is a shortage of officials across the country. The appearance is often worse than what is reality.

Peace

[Kevzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The reason I said this could be a conflict of interest, it seems to me that the local assigning secretary can assign his/her friends and not recommend the best official. Now do I feel they should have some imput? Of course they should, but they should not be the one making the actual assigning. That should be someone independent that does not have a regular interaction with those officials in my opinion.

I am not saying that all systems are perfect. I just think the system that KY has produced was part of the reason this whole thing blew up, based on what I have read and what some sources told me. Even if an official is qualified by all standards, it gives the appearance of something that is not that way. I am glad I do not live in such a system. I think this is why there is a shortage of officials across the country. The appearance is often worse than what is reality.

Peace

Well, I know the person that assigns the games personally. His son in law is in the association and never gets to do "big games" like that. He works the 1st or 2nd round then sits the rest of the season. How many guys will do that? I think is says alot about the person.

But you are correct. There are places that the "good ole boy" network runs rampant, but not in that association and not in the one I am in. It mainly runs in the rural areas where good officials are hard to come by. That's why our committee system system seems to work best. Sometimes the coaches have interaction with the officials and sometimes they do not. Works better than most (except for me). I don't do alot of HS ball and it really hurts me in the ratings. We all stay in it hoping to get a tourney game someday. I feel that I have the best grasp of the three person system, yet barely get district games. So the system is not flawless. (I know that sounds like I am tooting my own horn, but I worked really hard and spent alot of "bling bling" to get where I am. Someday, when I can work more HS games it will pay off. I just chosse the college games now for more experience).

Great debate though. Love talking about things like this with other people that know what's what!

[BktBallRef]

Why shouldn't local assignors be involved in deciding what officials in their area work the playoffs? Why is it a major conflict of interest?

An assignor assigns the same officials all year long. He knows who the best officials are. He know what their capabilities are. He knows who can blow the whistle and who can't.

In NC, local assignors assign officials to work Sectional playoff games. If you're a Class 1 or Class 2 official, you'll get one, maybe two playoff games. The state association people don't see everyone work. They depend on the local assignors, who do the job all year long, to assign their locals during the playoffs.

In our local, if you work varsity all year long, you'll get a Sectional playoff game. The higher your rating, the more experienced, the more likely you are to get a second or even third game.

The local assignor submits nominees for the Regional tourney. The state usually accepts those nominations. They then assign those officials to 2 regional games and choose the state final officials. The same guys do NOT go every year. If you do a great job and keep your nose clean, you'll go once every 3 or 4 years. I went in 2003 and 2006. I don't expect to have another opportunity until 2009 or 2010.

I'm sure good ole boy systems exist in some areas across the country. But to ignore the fact that the local assignor knows his people, and knows what they are capable of would be stupid. Without his input, you're just pulling names out of a hat.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

An assignor assigns the same officials all year long. He knows who the best officials are. He know what their capabilities are. He knows who can blow the whistle and who can't.

The assignor should also know from experience what personalities don't mesh well from a crew standpoint also, and could maybe keep those individuals away from each other, if possible. Some officials are just like oil and water with other officials; that's just human nature. From what I've read, that might have been a factor in the Kentucky fiasco too.

I just wanted to add that point; I completely agree with the rest of your post. JMHO.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

to ignore the fact that the local assignor knows his people, and knows what they are capable of would be stupid. Without his input, you're just pulling names out of a hat.

Or you simply rely on the same people every year. Or you rely on the coaches' lists. It's not necessarily pulling names out of a hat, but it definitely fails to take advantage of an important source of information.

[Kevzebra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The assignor should also know from experience what personalities don't mesh well from a crew standpoint also, and could maybe keep those individuals away from each other, if possible. Some officials are just like oil and water with other officials; that's just human nature. From what I've read, that might have been a factor in the Kentucky fiasco too.

I just wanted to add that point; I completely agree with the rest of your post. JMHO.

Well, they were on different crews. When the "incident" occured, it was halftime of the first Semi and the person that sued was working that game, the other person was doing the later game.

And the guy that caused all the hubbub isn't one of the greatest partners in the world. No doubt that he can referee, he just wants everything about "him" and not the game. I bet there weren't 5 people in that whole association that would work with him. That's sad!

[JRutledge]

For something as important as the playoffs, I feel there should be someone that has no direct ties to the officials or the schools in assigning the officials. I can see all kinds of personal relationships that might have the competitors wondering why this guy got the opportunity and why this guy did not. I also feel that way because I do not work in that kind of system. Not that my system is much better, but at least there is less chance that someone I have worked directly with is not making playoff assignments. It also sounds like a lot of this blow up was a result of the closeness of everyone involved.

Peace

[26 Year Gap]

Anything happen to any of the partners? i.e. the guy working with the fellow who was tossed in mid-game & the guy who was to follow with the guy who barged in?

[Ref Daddy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Wow, I guess we know where you stand.



Why are local assignment chairman assigning playoff games to a state tournament? Sounds like a major conflict of interest.

Peace

It was not a state tourny event.

It was a regional finals.

Local jurisdiction.

[Ref Daddy]

The story, as I was told from insiders, involoved heavy competition to get the high profile game Saturday nite.

The official that sued wanted the bigger (5A) games than what he got assigned.

He "discovered" that the officials assigned to the "high profile" game were both alumni of one of the schools playing. He challanged that wanting to get the game and - as I understand - even went to the coach of the other team with this information. The Coach called the assigner and complained too.

It was the Friday nite before the Regional finals and the Chapter President - what was assigned the big 5A game (and an alumni of one of the schools) was told the other official was "making noise" and he confronted him after the semi final games friday game in the locker room.

The argument got heated and spilled into the stands with both in street clothes and both were escorted out of the arena.

The Chapter president admitted later that yes, he approached the ref earlier in the locker room and brought the subject up and apologized.

After this encounter the assigner pulled AT LEAST the first official's Saturday game (I don't know if he pulled the Presidents schedule for the big 5A game too). The official showed up anyway Saturday to ref the lower schools with a court order he could not be removed by the assinger.

That game was cancelled as a result.

The case was driopped when the association showed the court that the assigner has the sole right and discrecion to assign and replace in these games for any reason.

The assigner was not directly accused in anything but resigned nonetheless.

[Kevzebra]

Originally Posted by Ref Daddy

The story, as I was told from insiders, involoved heavy competition to get the high profile game Saturday nite.

The official that sued wanted the bigger (5A) games than what he got assigned.

He "discovered" that the officials assigned to the "high profile" game were both alumni of one of the schools playing. He challanged that wanting to get the game and - as I understand - even went to the coach of the other team with this information. The Coach called the assigner and complained too.

It was the Friday nite before the Regional finals and the Chapter President - what was assigned the big 5A game (and an alumni of one of the schools) was told the other official was "making noise" and he confronted him after the semi final games friday game in the locker room.

The argument got heated and spilled into the stands with both in street clothes and both were escorted out of the arena.

The Chapter president admitted later that yes, he approached the ref earlier in the locker room and brought the subject up and apologized.

After this encounter the assigner pulled AT LEAST the first official's Saturday game (I don't know if he pulled the Presidents schedule for the big 5A game too). The official showed up anyway Saturday to ref the lower schools with a court order he could not be removed by the assinger.

That game was cancelled as a result.

The case was driopped when the association showed the court that the assigner has the sole right and discrecion to assign and replace in these games for any reason.

The assigner was not directly accused in anything but resigned nonetheless.

Correct except for one or two points: 1) We don't have basketball classifications in KY. 2) The official in question that brought up the "alumni" question happened to be friends with one of the assistant coaches at that school as well. Granted that one should not officiate games at a HS he/she went to, but in college ball, we have a 10 year waiting period (in some places) and then we can go to that school. I do not see the problem in sending an alum to a game. IF the official has the integrity to do so, I see no problem with it. At that crucial time, the assigning secretary had the confidence that no bias would come up.

The guy that sued just wanted that game because of the other things I mentioned in a previous post. Not the game "him"! It is all about "him"!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Ref Daddy

It was not a state tourny event.

It was a regional finals.

Local jurisdiction.

That is not the case in every state. Our regional championships are still apart of the state playoffs. There is no "local" jurisdiction where I live. The IHSA controls that and if you ask me that how it should be.

Peace

[Kevzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is not the case in every state. Our regional championships are still apart of the state playoffs. There is no "local" jurisdiction where I live. The IHSA controls that and if you ask me that how it should be.

Peace

Well, we are opposed in that area. Our system rarely has any problems, this just happened to be one of those things that happens.

The IHSA system is as old as the hills if you ask me and if one was to move into your state, getting anything but JV games (no matter what level you are at now) is next to impossible! Local jurisdction, as well as state jurisdiction, all have bad points. Local guys know his/her people very well and that least newer people that have the talent work bigger games as he/she move up the ladder. In IN, you have the worst (IMO) system there is for getting "new blood" into the mix. It takes forever and even if one has the talent to work, some officials have contracts for years with certain schools. Makes for a long frustraiting wait.

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by Kevzebra

The official in question that brought up the "alumni" question happened to be friends with one of the assistant coaches at that school as well. Granted that one should not officiate games at a HS he/she went to, but in college ball, we have a 10 year waiting period (in some places) and then we can go to that school. I do not see the problem in sending an alum to a game. IF the official has the integrity to do so, I see no problem with it. At that crucial time, the assigning secretary had the confidence that no bias would come up.

FWIW, I disagree that it is O.K. to send an alum (or a friend of someone on the coaching staff) to work playoff games involving that school. I fully believe that there are officials capable of working those games without bias or influence, but the whole point is to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest. Depending on how desperate a local area is for quality officials, it may be necessary for longer-term alums (etc.) to work regular season games -- although I think every effort should be made to avoid that as well -- but it will serve officiating and the game of basketball better if we avoid the appearance of conflicts, not just the conflicts that make themselves evident.

[truerookie]

The Kentucky debacle is something to learn from. IMO, just be grateful to get those typegames.