Comments On NFHS Changes

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

\I'm going with the eye contact/nod since they have already communicated it to me - I want the definite request so it doesn't come back to bite me later, but I'm not making them say it in exactly a certain way...

Is this a regional application of the rules?

Peace

[Dan_ref]

This is getting silly.

If you're standing next a coach and he mutters "Timeout on the make" during any part of a free throw - or while his player or an opponent puts up a field goal attempt - then give it to him. Just give him the TO & move on.

IMO to make him ask again makes you an annoying irritant.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

IMO to make him ask again makes you an annoying irritant.

BINGO. This "micro-dotting" of the rules is something that tends to get a lot of officials in trouble with coaches. Just because you are technically right doesn't mean that you are doing the right thing as far as common sense / game management is concerned.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Brad

BINGO. This "micro-dotting" of the rules is something that tends to get a lot of officials in trouble with coaches. Just because you are technically right doesn't mean that you are doing the right thing as far as common sense / game management is concerned.

I believe a lot of things like this depend on the way you say things and the way you treat people. I have never had a single problem asking a coach to request a TO at the appropriate time. I do not get in their face or argue with them. I just ask them to make the request after the basket or tell them when to make the request. It is really not that big of a deal. If they get upset about this they will get upset when you ask them to get in the coaching box or when you ask them to get a sub when the rules require such a substitute.

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by Brad

BINGO. This "micro-dotting" of the rules is something that tends to get a lot of officials in trouble with coaches. Just because you are technically right doesn't mean that you are doing the right thing as far as common sense / game management is concerned.

I've never ever had a coach show even the slightest bit of irritation with me when I've said, "OK coach, I'll be looking at you to call it after this free throw." Not even once. I think most coaches know that it's pretty basic for us to give a T.O. when it's requested and not take reservations for a time-out like we're a restaurant hostess.

If that gets an official "in trouble with a coach," that's a coach issue not an officials issue. I'd love to see a coach send a letter in to an assignor saying, "he made me wait and request the time-out when I actually wanted it." LOL, bring it on.

Z

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I've never ever had a coach show even the slightest bit of irritation with me when I've said, "OK coach, I'll be looking at you to call it after this free throw." Not even once. I think most coaches know that it's pretty basic for us to give a T.O. when it's requested and not take reservations for a time-out like we're a restaurant hostess.

If that gets an official "in trouble with a coach," that's a coach issue not an officials issue. I'd love to see a coach send a letter in to an assignor saying, "he made me wait and request the time-out when I actually wanted it." LOL, bring it on.

Agreed. I don't think coaches are expecting you to recognize the TO before the proper time. He tells you during the FTs because he wants you to be looking for it. FT goes in, I look, and then he signals or speaks. If he doesn't for some strange, "Still want it coach?" "Yes." TWEET!

It's not rocket science.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Agreed. I don't think coaches are expecting you to recognize the TO before the proper time. He tells you during the FTs because he wants you to be looking for it. FT goes in, I look, and then he signals or speaks. If he doesn't for some strange, "Still want it coach?" "Yes." TWEET!

It's not rocket science.

This is the way I handle it as well. As far as the fashion police stuff, I agree that it does seem a little much, but NFHS is that way in alot of sports (baseball in particular). On the other hand, if the coaches would cover it early, it wouldn't be a problem. Last year in a sophmore game before a V game I didn't allow a sub because he was told 3 times to pull his short up. He started onto the floor and I waved him back to the table and told the coach we would let him in at the next dead ball if he is in proper uniform. The crowd was on me for that, but after the game I had 4 coaches from that school (not all basketball) thank me because they hadn't seen anyone else enforce it.

[Dan_ref]

Can anyone provide a rules reference for this btw?

I didn't look in the nfhs book but from what I can tell the ncaa book does not constrain a coach/player to request a TO only during the time it can be granted. It only says when the official may actually grant a request after it is requested.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Can anyone provide a rules reference for this btw?

I didn't look in the nfhs book but from what I can tell the ncaa book does not constrain a coach/player to request a TO only during the time it can be granted. It only says when the official may actually grant a request after it is requested.

I guess it could depend upon how you interpret it, but here's the NFHS rule quote:

5-8-3 . . . Grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:
a. The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team.
b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

For me the key element in the above rule is the timing of the request by the player or head coach, not the granting by the official. This understanding is strongly supported by the following two casebook plays:

5.8.3 SITUATION D: A1 or A2 requests a time-out: (a) while airborne A1 is holding the ball; (b) while A1's throw-in is in flight toward A2; or (c) when the ball is on the floor at A1's disposal for a throw-in. RULING: The request is granted in (a) and (c), but denied in (b), as there is no player control while the ball is loose between players.

5.8.3 SITUATION F: A1's dribble is “interrupted” when the ball deflects off his/her shoe. A1 or a teammate asks or signals for a time-out as the ball bounces toward: (a) the sideline; or (b) the division line. RULING: The request cannot be granted in (a) or (b), since A1's dribble has been “interrupted” and the ball is loose. (4-15-6c)

For example, in the last play I wouldn't wait until a player of Team A controlled the ball and then belatedly grant the time-out request which A1 or his teammate made previously while the ball was loose and bouncing on the floor. I would need another time-out request which was made while a member of Team A had player control. Perhaps you would not do the same.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

The way I deal with these situations is to simply acknowledge the request with a nod, and then when the free throw goes, I look to the coach for the request, or for confirmation. There is nothing overly officious about doing that, but you still do get the confirmation. And there have been cases where the coach changed his mind.

I think I've said this about three times.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Can anyone provide a rules reference for this btw?

I didn't look in the nfhs book but from what I can tell the ncaa book does not constrain a coach/player to request a TO only during the time it can be granted. It only says when the official may actually grant a request after it is requested.

I can see it now!

Halftime:
Coach: "Ref, I going to want a TO at the first dead ball with under one minute left in the game."
Dan_Ref: "You got it, you stupid ****er!"



Yep, I guess that works in NYC but not in NC.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Can anyone provide a rules reference for this btw?

I didn't look in the nfhs book but from what I can tell the ncaa book does not constrain a coach/player to request a TO only during the time it can be granted. It only says when the official may actually grant a request after it is requested.

NCAA rule 5-9-5 - "The game clock ...shall be stopped when an official recognizes a request by the head coach or a player for a time out AFTER a goal until the subsequent throw-in begins".

Rule 5-1-5 iterates that a "goal" includes a made free throw.

Kinda explicit imo.....sureasheck doesn't say anything about recognizing a request made before a goal is made.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by zebraman

...like we're a restaurant hostess.

Z

Z -

Table for 3, please?

And please tell me you're not wearing that frilly, black and white outfit?...

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Z -

Table for 3, please?

And please tell me you're not wearing that frilly, black and white outfit?...

Yep, and the heels too. What's it to ya?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Yep, and the heels too. What's it to ya?

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Brad

BINGO. This "micro-dotting" of the rules is something that tends to get a lot of officials in trouble with coaches. Just because you are technically right doesn't mean that you are doing the right thing as far as common sense / game management is concerned.

Naw, now you're just using the old tactic that some posters sometimes use here of saying common sense/proper game management principles go hand-in-hand with their opinion only, and anyone that disagrees with them is one of those bad ol' rulebook officials. I kinda expected a little bit more from you, Brad. That kinda argument just don't fly imo; it goes hand-in-hand with something like "you'll never get to a higher level unless you do things the same way I do".


Proper TO management should be included in everybody's pre-game imo. It's also not a bad idea to tell the coaches your expectations during the pre-game period also. Tell 'em that one of you will try to check the bench late-game after made baskets, FT's, etc. for a TO request, but the coach has to be ready with an immediate TO signal, preferably both oral and visual.The officials should be prepared for TO requests in these end-of-game situations, and they should know which official should be taking a quick look at the bench for a request. My feeling is......don't let a coach put you into a situation where he can blame you for not doing his job.

Let the crew follow written procedures, let the coach do his job properly, and then nobody should have any valid b!tches.

Btw, the coach sez gimme a TO if the FT is made. What do you do if there's a violation or a foul during the FT? Still give him the TO? Run over and ask him what he'd like to do now?

NOTE: Please note that the preceding is my opinion only.