Comments On NFHS Changes

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

The way I deal with these situations is to simply acknowledge the request with a nod, and then when the free throw goes, I look to the coach for the request, or for confirmation. There is nothing overly officious about doing that, but you still do get the confirmation. And there have been cases where the coach changed his mind.

I think I've said this about three times.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Can anyone provide a rules reference for this btw?

I didn't look in the nfhs book but from what I can tell the ncaa book does not constrain a coach/player to request a TO only during the time it can be granted. It only says when the official may actually grant a request after it is requested.

I can see it now!

Halftime:
Coach: "Ref, I going to want a TO at the first dead ball with under one minute left in the game."
Dan_Ref: "You got it, you stupid ****er!"



Yep, I guess that works in NYC but not in NC.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I think I've said this about three times.



I can see it now!

Halftime:
Coach: "Ref, I going to want a TO at the first dead ball with under one minute left in the game."
Dan_Ref: "You got it, you stupid ****er!"



Yep, I guess that works in NYC but not in NC.

Well, if at the half he asks for a TO at the first dead ball with under 1 minute left he is a stupid ****er.

Even in NC I suppose.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Can anyone provide a rules reference for this btw?

I didn't look in the nfhs book but from what I can tell the ncaa book does not constrain a coach/player to request a TO only during the time it can be granted. It only says when the official may actually grant a request after it is requested.

NCAA rule 5-9-5 - "The game clock ...shall be stopped when an official recognizes a request by the head coach or a player for a time out AFTER a goal until the subsequent throw-in begins".

Rule 5-1-5 iterates that a "goal" includes a made free throw.

Kinda explicit imo.....sureasheck doesn't say anything about recognizing a request made before a goal is made.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

The way I deal with these situations is to simply acknowledge the request with a nod, and then when the free throw goes, I look to the coach for the request, or for confirmation. There is nothing overly officious about doing that, but you still do get the confirmation.

I used to think that was "common sense", too. Then one night the coach told me he wanted the TO on the make. I nodded. The FT went in. I looked at him. He looked at me. I looked at him really hard. He looked at me.

The ball was inbounded, he gave me a "Where is my TO?" look, and I gave him a "You didn't ask" shrug.

Now, when the coach asks for a TO on the make, I say, "I'll stay right here. Just remind me."

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I am with Rich, Dan and Brad on this on this one. What do you do when a coach makes a request as follow?

Sit: Team B is shooting the second of two FT's

Coach: Next dead ball, I want a time-out
Official: Coach, I will look at you, you will have to request a time out again.

Is the ball not dead once it is in the net? per rule 5-8-3b.

The ball becomes monetarily dead after it checks the nets before the throw-in. Not while it is in the nets.

[Brad]

How would you respond to a coach who tells you at the pre-game that he wants you to call a TO every time the other team goes on a run of 10 straight points? You going to allow that as well?

OK - that is just absurd. Coaches do not ask for that. I defy you or anyone else to give me an example that is even close. What they do often request is a time-out after a made free throw. Why? Because it fits the game.

What if the shooter misses the FT and they spend several minutes trying to make a shot and then a basket is made. Are you going to award the TO now?

Of course not and no one is suggesting that.

Why do we come up with absurd comments and situations that are completely different than the original situation? We have a coach requesting a time-out on a made free-throw. If the free-throw goes in, give him the darn time-out -- it is that simple.

You are not talking strategy with him (i.e. the 10-point run situation) and you are not being an assistant coach (i.e. if the free throw is missed and there are several shots, etc.). You are simply responding to a very simple and straight-forward request.

There is a place for common sense in basketball officiating. You don't call 3-seconds on the guy that just has one heel barely touching the free-throw lane line. You don't start a game with technicals because the starters weren't marked with 9:45 left on the clock before the game. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Don't bury your nose so far in the rule book that you can't see the basketball game that you are supposed to be officiating.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Brad

OK - that is just absurd. Coaches do not ask for that. I defy you or anyone else to give me an example that is even close. What they do often request is a time-out after a made free throw. Why? Because it fits the game.

I agree that would be absurd. I would never do that either. I do know that I will just ask a coach to "ask when the shot goes" and put the responsibility on them. I have never, ever had a single problem by asking that. So either way it goes, no one is going to completely agree on this. My telling them to ask at the appropriate time is not a big deal as many of you have made it out to be. In most cases the conversation is a one on one conversation and no one hears the conversation in the first place. I hate to say this, but if you have a certain presence about yourself, you will be amazed what coaches and players will go along with.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Strictly speaking, no it is NOT. The ball is not dead until the goal is made and for that to happen the ball must do more than just enter the basket/net. It must remain in there or pass through. How long it must remain in there before the goal is made is up to the judgment of the official.
And that is per rule 5-1-1.

Strictly speaking, who cares?

[REFVA]

I've been hesitating to add my two cents on this topic, after reading so many IMO, and wise remarks, I felt appropriate to throw mine in. I think this is a good topic just based on feedback, We all seem to have different ways on what works for us, I also have read many interprtation on what the rules states, I guess everyone could and would treated it different. It all basically comes down to what works best for each individual irregardless what is right and what is wrong. Just know if you don't follow the rule, that you are willing to take the heat etc...I am thankful that I treated the similar situation a different number of ways and lucky enough I haven't got bitten in the A$$. Although you'll never be wrong if you follow the rule..I was actually at a game a couple of years ago, close score, The coach asked for TO after the make the Ref looked right at him and didn't nod, wink, wave or even say TO, the official continued play and the coach ripped a new one. Just the way the ball bounces. The coach did eventualy call a time out after the second FT. But he was a split second from getting a T.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Brad

Why do we come up with absurd comments and situations that are completely different than the original situation?

I guess it's the slippery slope theory - if you're already allowing something that's a little outside the way the rules are written, how far before you draw the line? My example was meant to be absurd; I certainly have never had that happen. But if you allow a coach to request the TO in advance, and perhaps even while his team isn't even in control of the ball, where do you draw that line where this situation is ok, but that situation isn't?

Originally Posted by Brad

You are not talking strategy with him (i.e. the 10-point run situation)

But you are, aren't you? If the FT is made, call the TO, but if it's missed, don't do anything. The coach has given you the responsibility of calling it, depending on what happens in the near future.

I really don't think we're too far apart on this issue. I agree it's good common sense to be aware of situations where a TO might be requested. I like the coach telling me he's going to want that TO; it reminds me to keep an eye on them so I don't miss the request in what's usually the hotly-contested last few minutes of a game. And like I said, 99% of the time just automatically granting the TO will not be a problem. It's just that I want to avoid that 1 time where all heck breaks loose because the coach changes his mind, I blow the whistle anyway and stop a fast break, etc. I have seen that happen, and that's not an absurd situation. So all I ask for is that confirmation that the coach still wants it during that period of time when they can legally request it. A nod, wink, signal, whatever. It's one less possibility of getting in trouble.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, and the head coach has to make a request at that time as per the same rule.

Where does it say that? The rule says we grant it at that time - not that they have to request it at that time...if someone shoots, and coach says "Time-out if it goes" while the ball is in the air, I'm giving them the time-out after it goes thru...that's per the rule - I granted it at the correct time.

[Raymond]

If the coach is an habitual a-hole I tell him he/she needs to remind me at the appropriate time. If the coach is the decent sort then I'll look to him/her with a ready whistle after the FT and I always get some sort of gesture that comfirms the TO call.

I have never had a problem with either scenario.


As for absurd scenarios, there is a local GV coach who always tells us in the pre-game that he will use his 30-second T-O's first and his team is so bad he's usually used them up by the end of the 1st quarter.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Where does it say that? The rule says we grant it at that time - not that they have to request it at that time...if someone shoots, and coach says "Time-out if it goes" while the ball is in the air, I'm giving them the time-out after it goes thru...that's per the rule - I granted it at the correct time.

Did you read the NCAA rule that I cited to Dan? Pretty explicit, isn't it? Can you point me to language anywhere that also talks about granting a TO request made before a goal?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Did you read the NCAA rule that I cited to Dan? Pretty explicit, isn't it? Can you point me to language anywhere that also talks about granting a TO request made before a goal?

I read the rule Dan posted, read the rule you posted, and actually read the rule out of the book just in case one of you two was lying to me again!!

All of the rules refer to "granting" the time-out at the appropriate time or "recognizing the request" at the appropriate time...none of them say that the coach must request it at a specific time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I read the rule Dan posted, read the rule you posted, and actually read the rule out of the book just in case one of you two was lying to me again!!

Dan may lie but Chief ThunderButt never speaks with forked tongue....