Comments On NFHS Changes

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I've never ever had a coach show even the slightest bit of irritation with me when I've said, "OK coach, I'll be looking at you to call it after this free throw." Not even once. I think most coaches know that it's pretty basic for us to give a T.O. when it's requested and not take reservations for a time-out like we're a restaurant hostess.

If that gets an official "in trouble with a coach," that's a coach issue not an officials issue. I'd love to see a coach send a letter in to an assignor saying, "he made me wait and request the time-out when I actually wanted it." LOL, bring it on.

Agreed. I don't think coaches are expecting you to recognize the TO before the proper time. He tells you during the FTs because he wants you to be looking for it. FT goes in, I look, and then he signals or speaks. If he doesn't for some strange, "Still want it coach?" "Yes." TWEET!

It's not rocket science.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

This is getting silly.

If you're standing next a coach and he mutters "Timeout on the make" during any part of a free throw - or while his player or an opponent puts up a field goal attempt - then give it to him. Just give him the TO & move on.

IMO to make him ask again makes you an annoying irritant.

I'm in the minority with Brad and Dan on this. I grant the timeout at the proper time if asked to grant "on the make." I know what he means. Doesn't mean I think any less of the "opposite" opinion -- I see its merits, too -- just reporting what I do on the court.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I'm in the minority with Brad and Dan on this. I grant the timeout at the proper time if asked to grant "on the make." I know what he means. Doesn't mean I think any less of the "opposite" opinion -- I see its merits, too -- just reporting what I do on the court.

The bottom line to this is you can do whatever you choose to do. As long as your assignor and fellow officials that you work with are OK with what you do that is fine. I know and have worked with officials that do the very same thing you guys have claimed. To me that is their choice and after all we have many of those things as officials.

Peace

[Junker]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Agreed. I don't think coaches are expecting you to recognize the TO before the proper time. He tells you during the FTs because he wants you to be looking for it. FT goes in, I look, and then he signals or speaks. If he doesn't for some strange, "Still want it coach?" "Yes." TWEET!

It's not rocket science.

This is the way I handle it as well. As far as the fashion police stuff, I agree that it does seem a little much, but NFHS is that way in alot of sports (baseball in particular). On the other hand, if the coaches would cover it early, it wouldn't be a problem. Last year in a sophmore game before a V game I didn't allow a sub because he was told 3 times to pull his short up. He started onto the floor and I waved him back to the table and told the coach we would let him in at the next dead ball if he is in proper uniform. The crowd was on me for that, but after the game I had 4 coaches from that school (not all basketball) thank me because they hadn't seen anyone else enforce it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by zebraman

...like we're a restaurant hostess.

Z

Z -

Table for 3, please?

And please tell me you're not wearing that frilly, black and white outfit?...

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Z -

Table for 3, please?

And please tell me you're not wearing that frilly, black and white outfit?...

Yep, and the heels too. What's it to ya?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Yep, and the heels too. What's it to ya?

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Dan_ref]

Can anyone provide a rules reference for this btw?

I didn't look in the nfhs book but from what I can tell the ncaa book does not constrain a coach/player to request a TO only during the time it can be granted. It only says when the official may actually grant a request after it is requested.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Can anyone provide a rules reference for this btw?

I didn't look in the nfhs book but from what I can tell the ncaa book does not constrain a coach/player to request a TO only during the time it can be granted. It only says when the official may actually grant a request after it is requested.

I guess it could depend upon how you interpret it, but here's the NFHS rule quote:

5-8-3 . . . Grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:
a. The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team.
b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

For me the key element in the above rule is the timing of the request by the player or head coach, not the granting by the official. This understanding is strongly supported by the following two casebook plays:

5.8.3 SITUATION D: A1 or A2 requests a time-out: (a) while airborne A1 is holding the ball; (b) while A1's throw-in is in flight toward A2; or (c) when the ball is on the floor at A1's disposal for a throw-in. RULING: The request is granted in (a) and (c), but denied in (b), as there is no player control while the ball is loose between players.

5.8.3 SITUATION F: A1's dribble is “interrupted” when the ball deflects off his/her shoe. A1 or a teammate asks or signals for a time-out as the ball bounces toward: (a) the sideline; or (b) the division line. RULING: The request cannot be granted in (a) or (b), since A1's dribble has been “interrupted” and the ball is loose. (4-15-6c)

For example, in the last play I wouldn't wait until a player of Team A controlled the ball and then belatedly grant the time-out request which A1 or his teammate made previously while the ball was loose and bouncing on the floor. I would need another time-out request which was made while a member of Team A had player control. Perhaps you would not do the same.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I guess it could depend upon how you interpret it, but here's the NFHS rule quote:

5-8-3 . . . Grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:
a. The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team.
b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

For me the key element in the above rule is the timing of the request by the player or head coach, not the granting by the official. This understanding is strongly supported by the following two casebook plays:

5.8.3 SITUATION D: A1 or A2 requests a time-out: (a) while airborne A1 is holding the ball; (b) while A1's throw-in is in flight toward A2; or (c) when the ball is on the floor at A1's disposal for a throw-in. RULING: The request is granted in (a) and (c), but denied in (b), as there is no player control while the ball is loose between players.

5.8.3 SITUATION F: A1's dribble is “interrupted” when the ball deflects off his/her shoe. A1 or a teammate asks or signals for a time-out as the ball bounces toward: (a) the sideline; or (b) the division line. RULING: The request cannot be granted in (a) or (b), since A1's dribble has been “interrupted” and the ball is loose. (4-15-6c)

For example, in the last play I wouldn't wait until a player of Team A controlled the ball and then belatedly grant the time-out request which A1 or his teammate made previously while the ball was loose and bouncing on the floor. I would need another time-out request which was made while a member of Team A had player control. Perhaps you would not do the same.

Thanks.

Although in the case play it does say the request shall be denied, we can infer that the request shall be denied at that time only to be granted at a later time. Where does it say a request that is made at the wrong time needs to be resubmitted?

FWIW, the relevant ncaa rule is under 5-9, which says:

Art. 3. Grants a player’s visual or oral request for a timeout, such request being granted when:
a. The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his or her team.
Exception 1: After the throw-in starts, no timeout shall be granted to the opponents of the throw-in team.
Exception 2: No timeout may be granted during an interrupted dribble.
b. The ball is dead.
c. A disqualified or injured player(s) has been replaced when a substitute(s) is available.
Art. 4. Grants a coach’s request for a timeout, such request being granted only when the coach’s team is in possession of the ball (this includes throwins and free throws) or when the ball is dead. The official must be certain the request was made by the head coach.

I don't see any related AR's.

FWIW2, when I can't grant a request per rule during a loose ball etc I do ask "still want it" when the the coach's team takes control of the ball. Often enough this is a gut reaction by the coach, or even a premediated attempt to get a TO when he knows it's not to be granted by rule. When a coach asks prematurely and conditionally for a TO (ie requests on the make when a shot/FT is in the air) I grant it without re-asking on the make. He's a big boy, I'm assuming he knows what he wants in this case.

As someone else said, it's just what I do. If you feel the need to do differently then do so.

[truerookie]

I am with Rich, Dan and Brad on this on this one. What do you do when a coach makes a request as follow?

Sit: Team B is shooting the second of two FT's

Coach: Next dead ball, I want a time-out
Official: Coach, I will look at you, you will have to request a time out again.

Is the ball not dead once it is in the net? per rule 5-8-3b.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I am with Rich, Dan and Brad on this on this one. What do you do when a coach makes a request as follow?

Sit: Team B is shooting the second of two FT's

Coach: Next dead ball, I want a time-out
Official: Coach, I will look at you, you will have to request a time out again.

Is the ball not dead once it is in the net? per rule 5-8-3b.

What if the shooter misses the FT and they spend several minutes trying to make a shot and then a basket is made. Are you going to award the TO now?

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Is the ball not dead once it is in the net? per rule 5-8-3b.

Yes, and the head coach has to make a request at that time as per the same rule.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Is the ball not dead once it is in the net? per rule 5-8-3b.

Strictly speaking, no it is NOT. The ball is not dead until the goal is made and for that to happen the ball must do more than just enter the basket/net. It must remain in there or pass through. How long it must remain in there before the goal is made is up to the judgment of the official.
And that is per rule 5-1-1.

[SMEngmann]

I don't understand what the big deal is here on the timeout issue, just use common sense and don't say or do anything stupid. In my opinion, a comment like, "I'll be looking for your request on the make," can be superfluous and annoying. I deem it to be a bit on the overly officious side. It is a comment that doesn't need to be made IMO.

On the other hand, too many things can change a coach's mind, and there always could be that 1 time when you blow a whistle for a timeout that the coach doesn't want anymore. Now you've basically put yourself into a bind, because the problems that could result compared to the inconvenience of confirming the request are too large. At the wrong time, you could ruin your game by doing this, or lose a lot of credibility.

The way I deal with these situations is to simply acknowledge the request with a nod, and then when the free throw goes, I look to the coach for the request, or for confirmation. There is nothing overly officious about doing that, but you still do get the confirmation. And there have been cases where the coach changed his mind.