Comments On NFHS Changes

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

LOL!

That's my point. At what point do you allow a coach to request a TO for later and at one point do you draw the line?

I already told you.

If he requests a TO on the make during a FT or while a shot's in the air.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I need to stop by the Cleveland Public Library this weekend and sort things out.

The Cleveland Library? Better check first to make sure that their book isn't out. Not that it really matters.....I heard that it's been completely colored anyway.

Got your passport ready?

[RookieDude]

I haven't been trolling around these parts much during the "off-season"...but, I just have to respond to this thread.
Why?
Because I rarely get to DISAGREE with JR!

I remember a Varsity game I was doing when I first started out. The same sitch we are discussing happened (except a player requested the "TO after the made FT" per the coach). The FT was made...the other team took the ball and completed a throw-in. The player looked at me like he was hurt, that I didn't grant a TO. I heard the Coach asking him why he didn't request a TO like he had instructed him to do. He said he DID...then the coach looked at me like he was hurt.
After the game, the coach was very polite but he did ask me why I didn't grant that TO after the made FT. I told him he would have had to ask again "at the appropriate time". As I was saying it, I felt like an "irritant a$$hole" (or whatever Dan said)...the coach bought it...but, I made up my mind then, that if I was going to be an "irritant a$$hole", to save it for something a whole lot better than that situation.

BTW...maybe it is regional...but I see a lot of officials granting TO's after "mades" without any eye contact. In other words, without taking their eyes off the court. Maybe NFHS would fire us all...

[icallfouls]

My experience has been that a quick glance will usually confirm the TO. However, there have been games I have been involved in, where a coach makes their request for a TO prior to the make of the FT, then turns and begins some prep work (erasing the markerboard, looking for a marker, calling for subs) for the TO. I acknowledged the coach's request and granted the TO per the request. To some degree it is a professional courtesy. I can only imagine how the rest of the game would go with this coach if I went letter of the law in this TO situation.

If for some reason the coach changes their mind, then just put the ball in play with the required provisions after a made FT, no big deal as the situation doesn't change, it is still a made FT. In future dealings with that coach, I would have the coach request it visually/orally.

If something other than a made FT happens, I just ask the coach if they still want the TO if they have possession of the ball. Never had a problem handling things this way.

In the end do what feels most comfortable and what works for you.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

MUST grant his time-out request? Who said anything about MUST???

That's the best you can do, pick a word out you don't like, rather than address the comparison?

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I already told you.

If he requests a TO on the make during a FT or while a shot's in the air.

ReallY? I've just looked through every post that you written in this thread and I don't see this statement anywhere.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

FWIW2, when I can't grant a request per rule during a loose ball etc I do ask "still want it" when the the coach's team takes control of the ball.

THANK YOU! So what's wrong with doing the same thing with the FT situation?

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What if the shooter misses the FT and they spend several minutes trying to make a shot and then a basket is made. Are you going to award the TO now?

Peace

No sir! different situation now.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, and the head coach has to make a request at that time as per the same rule.

Sir! I would like to thank you for your continuing interest in my development. You are correct, the request must be made again. Once again thank you.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

The ball becomes monetarily dead after it checks the nets before the throw-in. Not while it is in the nets.

It loses its value?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's the best you can do, pick a word out you don't like, rather than address the comparison?



ReallY? I've just looked through every post that you written in this thread and I don't see this statement anywhere.



THANK YOU! So what's wrong with doing the same thing with the FT situation?

You're obviously not reading my posts. I posted twice exactly when I'll do this. I also posted when I do not do this & exactly why.

Go back, reread the thread, & try again. You can do much better than this.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I already told you.

If he requests a TO on the make during a FT or while a shot's in the air.

To quote a famous curmudgeon:

You got a rule citation to back that up?

99% of the time (ok, I may even be convinced to go up to 99.3%), I agree it won't hurt. I'm just paranoid enough to worry about that 1 time where something happens and I don't have a rule to back me up. So why not just ask for that verification just to CYA?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

To quote a famous curmudgeon:

You got a rule citation to back that up?

99% of the time (ok, I may even be convinced to go up to 99.3%), I agree it won't hurt. I'm just paranoid enough to worry about that 1 time where something happens and I don't have a rule to back me up. So why not just ask for that verification just to CYA?

You need to reread the thread too.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Got your passport ready?

Yep. Picked it up at WalMart this morning.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

You're obviously not reading my posts. I posted twice exactly when I'll do this. I also posted when I do not do this & exactly why.

Go back, reread the thread, & try again. You can do much better than this.

Well, let's see. Here' s your first post.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

This is getting silly.

If you're standing next a coach and he mutters "Timeout on the make" during any part of a free throw - or while his player or an opponent puts up a field goal attempt - then give it to him. Just give him the TO & move on.

IMO to make him ask again makes you an annoying irritant.

Second post.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Can anyone provide a rules reference for this btw?

I didn't look in the nfhs book but from what I can tell the ncaa book does not constrain a coach/player to request a TO only during the time it can be granted. It only says when the official may actually grant a request after it is requested.

Third post.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Thanks.

Although in the case play it does say the request shall be denied, we can infer that the request shall be denied at that time only to be granted at a later time. Where does it say a request that is made at the wrong time needs to be resubmitted?

FWIW, the relevant ncaa rule is under 5-9, which says:

Art. 3. Grants a player’s visual or oral request for a timeout, such request being granted when:
a. The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his or her team.
Exception 1: After the throw-in starts, no timeout shall be granted to the opponents of the throw-in team.
Exception 2: No timeout may be granted during an interrupted dribble.
b. The ball is dead.
c. A disqualified or injured player(s) has been replaced when a substitute(s) is available.
Art. 4. Grants a coach’s request for a timeout, such request being granted only when the coach’s team is in possession of the ball (this includes throwins and free throws) or when the ball is dead. The official must be certain the request was made by the head coach.

I don't see any related AR's.

FWIW2, when I can't grant a request per rule during a loose ball etc I do ask "still want it" when the the coach's team takes control of the ball. Often enough this is a gut reaction by the coach, or even a premediated attempt to get a TO when he knows it's not to be granted by rule. When a coach asks prematurely and conditionally for a TO (ie requests on the make when a shot/FT is in the air) I grant it without re-asking on the make. He's a big boy, I'm assuming he knows what he wants in this case.

As someone else said, it's just what I do. If you feel the need to do differently then do so.

Fourth post.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Well, if at the half he asks for a TO at the first dead ball with under 1 minute left he is a stupid ****er.

Even in NC I suppose.

At which point I asked "LOL! That's my point. At what point do you allow a coach to request a TO for later and at one point do you draw the line?"

Fifth post.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

It sez when the official is allowed to recognize the request.

It sez nothing at all about when the request should be made.

If it was as clear as you make it out to be the rule would say

"The game clock ...shall be stopped when an official recognizes a request by the head coach or a player for a time out that is made after a goal until the subsequent throw-in begins".

Sixth post.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I already told you.

If he requests a TO on the make during a FT or while a shot's in the air.

Sorry my friend, but nowhere in those first 5 posts do you address my question. I'm addressing the principle of requesting of TO in advance. You'll do it on a FT but not at other times? How about duyring a loose ball? How is that different?

I'm done, before I make you mad.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Well, let's see. Here' s your first post.



Second post.



Third post.



Fourth post.



At which point I asked "LOL! That's my point. At what point do you allow a coach to request a TO for later and at one point do you draw the line?"

Fifth post.



Sixth post.



Sorry my friend, but nowhere in those first 5 posts do you address my question.

I'm done, before I make you mad.

I've given my position.

You just don't accept it.

No problem, I'll live.

:shrug:

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

You need to reread the thread too.

I did. And yes, the rule is not worded clearly on whether the request shall be made at the appropriate time, or the request shall be granted at the appropriate time.

I guess if I have to choose between the remote possibility of the coach changing his mind and the following mess, or the remote possibility of a coach thinking I'm an irritant because I asked for him to verify the request, I'll be the irritant. The mess would be my problem, his feeling I'm an irritant would be his problem. WTH, I'm already an irritant, right?