A few more questions...

[Texas Aggie]

It's a "T" even if the intentional or flagrant contact is on or by an airborne shooter while the ball is dead?

I say it is. 4-19-5-c that says: (a technical foul is)

An intentional oor flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter

I don't believe the rules committee intended to exempt flagrant or intentional contact by the AS (or on the AS), but rather meant to exempt contact that is not intentional or flagrant, but happened during a dead ball.

I do, however, agree that the way the rule is written allows differing opinions. And I don't think it will happen very often (I've never seen what I would rule intentional contact by an AS or on an AS), I will call an AS, for example, who forcefully uses his hand to the face of an opponent for no reason as an intentional or flagrant foul if it meets the requirements of those rules otherwise.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

I say it is. 4-19-5-c that says: (a technical foul is)

I think that you should read rule R4-19-1, which says "a personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead". The NOTE following further defines how the FED wants the play called. You ignore the contact by or on the airborne shooter unless such contact is intentional or flagrant. That's pretty straight-forward and definitive rules language imo.

You're wrong in calling this particular foul as being a technical foul, and calling this play according to your interpretation could possibly be a factor in a game. Giving a defender a "T" for intentional contact on an airborne shooter when the ball was dead instead of giving him the intentional personal foul that the rule calls for could possibly mean the ejection of that player for getting a second technical foul.

[Texas Aggie]

Giving a defender a "T" for intentional contact on an airborne shooter when the ball was dead instead of giving him the intentional personal foul that the rule calls for

But the rule doesn't exempt the defender in that scenario, thus a T would be proper even under your reading. Read the rule again. It says, "intentional or flagrant contact foule while the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter," not "by or on an aiborne shooter" as article 1 reads.

Again, I don't believe the committee intented to 1) make a distinction between intentional or flagrant contact on or against an AS and 2) insert the last phrase in 4-19-5-c to exempt dead ball intentional or flagrant contact from being a T under that condition, but rather to make it clear that contact against an AS was to be ignored unless intentional or flagrant.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

But the rule doesn't exempt the defender in that scenario, thus a T would be proper even under your reading. Read the rule again. It says, "intentional or flagrant contact foule while the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter," not "by or on an aiborne shooter" as article 1 reads.

Again, I don't believe the committee intented to 1) make a distinction between intentional or flagrant contact on or against an AS and 2) insert the last phrase in 4-19-5-c to exempt dead ball intentional or flagrant contact from being a T under that condition, but rather to make it clear that contact against an AS was to be ignored unless intentional or flagrant.

I disagree.

I also give up.

[jkjenning]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
rather to make it clear that contact against an AS was to be ignored unless intentional or flagrant.

This, I have never heard... then why stay with the airborne shooter until they return to the court? If a defender contacts the AS, then that's [most likely] a foul - without it being intentional or flagrant. It's difficult to understand how the ball can be dead while the shooter is airborne, but not difficult to understand why contact with an AS should be called a foul.

[jkjenning]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
You ignore the contact by or on the airborne shooter unless such contact is intentional or flagrant. That's pretty straight-forward and definitive rules language imo.

Are you both saying to ignore contact on an airborne shooter unless the contact is intentional or flagrant?
4-1-2 "The airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting."
See also 4.1.1 - the contact on the AS is neither intentional nor flagrant but is still a foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Are you both saying to ignore contact on an airborne shooter unless the contact is intentional or flagrant?
4-1-2 "The airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting."
See also 4.1.1 - the contact on the AS is neither intentional nor flagrant but is still a foul.

JK, read 4-19-1NOTE. We're talking about contact on the airborne shooter after the ball is dead.

Lah me......

[jkjenning]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
We're talking about contact on the airborne shooter after the ball is dead.

Ok, I was reading with the hope of understanding what situations could fall under the category of "dead ball, airborne shooter" and the dialogue at the time seemed to have left that context. After re-reading the dialogue between you two, the main point of contention seems to be whether or not a personal foul can be called during a dead ball if that foul is on an AS or if any such foul would have to be either intentional or flagrant.

I think 4-19-1 reads pretty clearly to say that until the shooter returns to the court, personal fouls apply - even if the ball is dead. I still can't imagine reasonable scenarios in which the ball would be dead and the shooter still airborne... another day!

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

I still can't imagine reasonable scenarios in which the ball would be dead and the shooter still airborne... another day!

1. Dunk; ball is dead when it passes through the net; shooter is undercut on the way back to the floor.

2. A1 jumps and shoots; A2 excessively swings elbows without making contact; ball becomes dead immediately; B1 fouls A2. (Less reasonable, but possible.)

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

My bad Chuck - I'm confusing "end of shot attempt" with "dead ball". I guess if a shot is block [end of shot] and a foul occurs away from the shooter [dead ball] then the shooter is fouled as well, that is a dead ball foul on an airborne shooter. The foul after a dunk sounds good!

If the shot is blocked, the ball's not dead. The ball is only dead as it falls through the net. So if the shot is blocked, there's no dead ball foul an an airborne shooter is there? What am I missing here?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

If the shot is blocked, the ball's not dead. The ball is only dead as it falls through the net. So if the shot is blocked, there's no dead ball foul an an airborne shooter is there? What am I missing here?

There was a blocked shot (ball remains live) followed by a foul on other than the shooter (ball becomes dead) followed by a foul on the airborne shooter (dead ball personal foul).