A few more questions...

[bradwxyz]

IN my previous queston, I will explain what happened. A Players was recorded in the official scorebook. He did not show up for the game until the beginning of the 2nd half. The coach on the other team said that since he showed up late he is allowed to play but the team is chareged a technical foul as a result of him showing up late. is this correct.

Also could some one explain the difference between an intentional, flagragrant and technical flagrant and the penalities for each. I am a little confused on this.

Thanks so much.

[zebraman]

If the player is in the scorebook, it doesn't matter when they show up. They can play with no penalty.

An intentional personal foul is a live ball foul. You need to read the intentional foul section in the NFHS rule book because there is more to it than a foul that is "on purpose." The offended team gets two foul shots plus a throw-in at the spot nearest the foul.

A flagrant foul is any foul that warrants an ejection from the game. It can be personal (live ball) or technical (dead ball) and the player is ejected from the game (to the bench under the supervision of the coach). Two free throws plus a throw-in. Throw-in at the spot nearest the foul if personal. Throw-in at halfcourt if technical.

Read rule 4-19 (foul). There is just too much to type to explain it all. It will make more sense to you when you read that rule.

Z

[Adam]

I'll only add that a flagrant technical could happen during live ball. If a player, following a no-call that he is particularly upset about, he turns to you and makes a few comments about your Mom's procreational habits, it's likely a flagrant technical during a live ball.

[Texas Aggie]

I think the distinction is contact during a dead ball that is intentional or flagrant is a technical foul. But that doesn't mean that a technical foul implies a dead ball (on a flagrant foul), as Snag's example illustrates.

Remember to keep personal and technical fouls separate. Personal fouls always involve contact, while technical fouls may or may not involve contact.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

I think the distinction is contact during a dead ball that is intentional or flagrant is a technical foul.

Oh?

It's a "T" even if the intentional or flagrant contact is on or by an airborne shooter while the ball is dead?

See rule 4-19-1 and 4-19-5(c)......

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by zebraman

An intentional personal foul is a live ball foul.

Contact by or on an airborne shooter during a dead ball?

[jkjenning]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Contact by or on an airborne shooter during a dead ball?

Ways the ball could be dead while a shooter is airborne:
1. legal block
2. lousy shot that will obviously miss
3. really, really good hang time

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Ways the ball could be dead while a shooter is airborne:
1. legal block

The ball becomes dead after a blocked shot?

2. lousy shot that will obviously miss

The ball becomes dead on an unsuccessful field goal attempt

3. really, really good hang time

How about when the ball passes through the net after a dunk?

[jkjenning]

My bad Chuck - I'm confusing "end of shot attempt" with "dead ball". I guess if a shot is block [end of shot] and a foul occurs away from the shooter [dead ball] then the shooter is fouled as well, that is a dead ball foul on an airborne shooter. The foul after a dunk sounds good!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

I guess if a shot is block [end of shot] and a foul occurs away from the shooter [dead ball] then the shooter is fouled as well, that is a dead ball foul on an airborne shooter.

Why is the foul on the airborne shooter a dead ball foul?

Neither a blocked shot nor a foul away from the shooter will cause the ball to become dead if those acts occur before the airborne shooter is fouled. NFHS rule 6-7-7EXCEPTION.

[jkjenning]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Why is the foul on the airborne shooter a dead ball foul?

Hmmm, ok how about:
1. A1 goes airborne and releases the shot
2. B1 hits the ball into the stands with his/her fist [9-4]
3. Now the ball is dead, the shooter is in the air and a foul could occur.
...the wording (Rule 4-19-1)A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead. has to be in the rule book for something valid (doesn't it?)!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Hmmm, ok how about:
1. A1 goes airborne and releases the shot
2. B1 hits the ball into the stands with his/her fist [9-4]
3. Now the ball is dead, the shooter is in the air and a foul could occur.
...the wording (Rule 4-19-1)A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead. has to be in the rule book for something valid (doesn't it?)!

That's a whole bunch of hang time.....

Don't overthink the play. Just as Chuck pointed out, the ball is dead as soon as a goal is scored-rule 6-7-1. All contact fouls during a dead ball are ignored unless the contact is judged intentional or flagrant. If you judge the dead-ball contact intentional or flagrant, you have to call an intentional or flagrant technical foul, as per 4-19-5(c). There is only one exception to the preceding, and that exception is contact on an airborne shooter. Contact on an airborne shooter after the ball becomes dead is treated as if that contact occurred during a live ball; iow it's a personal foul- and it's one FT if the shot went in or 2 FT's if the shot misses.

That's why the exception is in the book. Make sense now?

[BillyMac]

Question 2. If a players number is recorded in the score book and the player allowed to enter the game at anytime without a penalty to that team?

IAABO Refresher Exam 2005

Question 73. Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warmup, the referee counts eleven team members of team A but while checking the book team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct? Answer: Yes Rule Citation:Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1; Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Question 2. If a players number is recorded in the score book and the player allowed to enter the game at anytime without a penalty to that team?

IAABO Refresher Exam 2005

Question 73. Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warmup, the referee counts eleven team members of team A but while checking the book team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct? Answer: Yes Rule Citation:Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1; Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4

You should put this on your list of Most Misunderstood Rules. IAABO very obviously does NOT understand this rule. The IAABO answer above is wrong.

[jkjenning]

Originally quoted by Jurassic Referee
Don't overthink the play.

I resemble that remark and demand an immediate recension of any apology!
...sounds to me like whoever crafted in that wording was thinking a bit hard as well.