"Honey Bunny"

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred

Believe it or not He was waiting for me to walk out of the gym to confront me on it.

...and?

What happened?

[coachgbert]

I did respond as a "lady" since I am one (at least I hope that's generally accepted by most that know me). I also am educated (master's degree), hold a full time professional position and coach young women on how to play basketball and behave in society as both women and players. I am not offended by the term lady, but then I grew up with parental orders to "act like a lady", "sit like a lady", "behave like a lady", etc. There is no excuse for the behavior of out of control players, fans and coaches. This past weekend I noted players on opposing teams that made comments to me as I coached my players. They made comments to the officials and to the fans in the stands. We also had our very first intentional foul called on an opposing team when she knocked my airborn shooter into the wall. Parents of the player that committed the foul were outraged that he would stop play to lecture both teams on playing aggressive, but playing fair and so no one gets injured.

Even though it's not up to the officials to teach manners, respect and sportsmanship, this one did a nice job of reinforcing rules. We all know that manners and respect are just rules of conduct that are learned. Officiating and teaching all in one game, he was a very good official.

Coach Gbert

[Jurassic Referee]

I think that there's people out there that make a career out of being offended. Aamof, they're not happy unless they can find a reason to be offended.

'Nuff said.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I did...I asked my wife and sister-in-law...wife has her Master's Degree and is a teacher (that would be a career) and sis-in-law has her Doctorate and is a VP of Admissions and Records at a Division II University in Seattle (that would be a career also)...they both thought that was one of the stupidest things they had ever heard...they both said "ladies" is a term of respect and shows gentelmanly behavior from the man...

I have had this conversation with my Mom who is a PhD in Sociology (retiring after 30 years at one University in June) who attended the University of Michigan, University of Wisconsin at Madison (Masters Degree) and got her undergrad at FAMU (Newsweek called the best University in the country). She also for years has taught classes like “Gender Roles” and “The Black Family” and these issues are discussed an written about in much greater detail. Also as part of her job she has sat on the board of many organizations that are in her field that deal with Sociology and other teaching organizations that involved people from all over the country and at some of the most prestigious Universities in the country. This background has exposed me to attending lectures, conferences or just talking to people that have expertise in the role of Gender in America and how things have chanced with expectations, language, social roles and sexuality concerns over the last 50 to 60 years alone. This is not the first time I have ever had a conversation with someone about this issue or read about this and many issues of gender and social-economic status. This is why I gave the explanation in the first place.

Once again we are not going to resolve this issue on a discussion board or any forum like this. Just thought there needed to be some balance to this discussion as what why things are the way they are. I personally do not care either way what you say or how you say it to the people in your life. Just know that someone that you might not know might have issues with the term and this might be unexpected if put your head in the sand.

Peace

[Ref_ Fred]

and?

What happened?

Like most of you we had a group of officials doing various games. when we all got done we walked out as a group and some of the veteran officials warned him that he best leave or we would call the police have place a complaint and possibly having him arrested. he did leave and nothing happened. I would have explained more if it had gotten out of control.

[coachgbert]

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred

Like most of you we had a group of officials doing various games. when we all got done we walked out as a group and some of the veteran officials warned him that he best leave or we would call the police have place a complaint and possibly having him arrested. he did leave and nothing happened. I would have explained more if it had gotten out of control.

Wow, maybe you were at my game! One of the dad's on the opposing team went crackers and pretty much the same thing happened after the game.

Coach Gbert

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred

Sorry for miss-reading your thoughts. thanks for the clearification.

As for AAU tournament, it's getting ugly. The rudness by the Coaches, Fans and of course it trickles right down to the players. They seem to see the adults do and get away with it, so why not us kids? I actually did a tournament in NO Va a month ago and had a parent ejected from the gymnasium for mis conduct. I know we need to have our focus on the game and not the stands, but this gentleman( I'm being kind) was so loud and out of control with his language. I stopped the game cold, alert security to have him removed. Believe it or not He was waiting for me to walk out of the gym to confront me on it. This is why we lack the respect of the players. It come from the parents down....

Sounds like your AAU administrators up that way need to tighten things up. I'm down in Southeastern VA and I have noticed a considerable improvement in coaches, players, and fans behavior this spring. It's almost as if the local AAU management set forth some sort of POE's for the teams. Of course it probably helps that our local AAU boss is Boo Williams, so edicts coming down from him carry considerable weight.

[Ref_ Fred]

Wow, maybe you were at my game! One of the dad's on the opposing team went crackers and pretty much the same thing happened after the game.

Coach Gbert

Are you located in Northern Virginia? Although this is a common act, I'm not surprised if it were else where..

[coachgbert]

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred

Are you located in Northern Virginia? Although this is a common act, I'm not surprised if it were else where..

No, Cleveland area of Ohio. Lots of that goes on here too. Seems to happen at some game in almost every tournament we enter. (EEK, after writing that it makes it sound like it either follows me or I am a jinx!)

[Ref_ Fred]

(EEK, after writing that it makes it sound like it either follows me or I am a jinx!)

It's not you, no jinx, it's all over..

Of course it probably helps that our local AAU boss is Boo Williams, so edicts coming down from him carry considerable weight.

yes he is a class act. He does not stand for any nonsense.

By the way, do you know Renaldo Ponce and Stan Trader. they are on national staff of officials.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred

By the way, do you know Renaldo Ponce and Stan Trader. they are on national staff of officials.

Can't said that I do. If they are local officials they must be Southside guys (Norfolk, VA Beach).

[LarryS]

I took an unscientific poll on another site I frequent. I phrased the question thus "Do you consider the term "ladies" to be condensending or feel it implies a subservient position?" The options I gave in the poll were;

1) Yes...I am offended you even typed the term.
2) No, but I can see where others would feel that way.
3) Who, in their right mind, would think that way about that term?

I also asked them, if they had no objection, to supply gender, race and location (Eastern US, South, Midwest, Western US)

I had 84 responses (40 women, 44 men). Of those 84, 80 provided their race (55 caucasian, 22 African-American, 2 Native American, 1 Asian). Most of those who responded were from the South or Midwest...4 from Eastern US, 5 from Western US.

Of the three possible answers...84 selected #3!

Obviously, they could have lied about their feeling and demographic information.

As for the information obtained...put it in the JSYK...NTYK category.

[dblref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Can't said that I do. If they are local officials they must be Southside guys (Norfolk, VA Beach).

Believe that Stan Trader is still in the northern VA area. At one time he was a member of my association, but not sure that he still is.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I think that there's people out there that make a career out of being offended. Aamof, they're not happy unless they can find a reason to be offended.

'Nuff said.

I could see how a single, random person within a significantly large population could truly believe that we still live in 15th century Europe, that she is actually a Lady and feel genuinely oppressed. She probably gets so down about it that she goes home and has some peasants tortured just to cheer herself up.

While I generally try to see things from both points of view, even if I don't accept one or both as valid, this one is just silly. I agree, JR, you have to be looking for a way to be offended in this case. And frankly, if I were looking for a way to be offended, I'd feel pretty lame about picking this one. If I couldn't do any better, I'd hang my head in shame.

[Corndog89]

As officials, we are authority figures. As such, our credibility, in large part, depends on treating everyone the same. Therefore, IMO, it is incumbent we don't do or say anything that may offend anyone, even if we do it innocently. Why do we stay calm and rational when dealing with an angry coach, an irate parent, or a petulant player? Because we have to always be in control and not ever be seen as playing favorites. EVER! But if we refer to players as "ladies" or "gentlemen", we may be doing just that, even if unconsciously or inadvertantly.

I love the poll Larry S did...84 out of 84 answers thought the issue was silly. But the 85th responder may very well be the one who is genuinely offended by the term "ladies". And if so, then odds are that #85 will be be a player/coach/parent in my next game and bring me grief when I unwittingly use the term "ladies". When someone is zealous about something, even something so seemingly innocuous as the term "ladies", and you offend their sense of righteousness, then you will never regain your moral authority in their eyes, to include the authority to officiate their game. Pretty sad when you think about it. Therefore, I do my best to avoid any terminology that may be construed as offensive and keep things as simple and straightforward as possible. Just good common sense.

And I liked what a couple other people said about officials setting the tenor of good sportsmanship, civility, and personal responsibility...we should and usually do. But I think we do it with our demeanor, sense of fair play, control of our emotions, and passion for the game we love. I don't have to call men/boys "gentlemen" or women/girls "ladies" to accomplish that.

One guy's opinions....