elbows to the face

[Raymond]

Been going back-n-forth with couple Laker fans in email today. One of them is a D2 official.

I didn't see the game last night but I heartell that Kobe's elbow made another landing last night (4 stitches to Barbosa's chin). The Laker fans excused the elbow saying the defender was crowding Kobe therefore responsible for the contact.

My question: Is there some sort of space requirement for legal guarding position? If defender is playing extremely tight defense but still maintaining LGP is there some sort of allowance for an offensive player's natural movement to allow contact with the defender.

There was a play in the NIT final where the defender was elbowed in the face and a couple forum members said "too bad" b/c he shouldn't have had his face there. In the play from the NIT final the defender was standing straight up, he wasn't leaning in face first.

[Back In The Saddle]

It's the same mentality that says you should call every block/charge a block because the defender was "crowding" the offensive player. It's stupid and wrong, but it's the same mentality.

[Jurassic Referee]

Is, was, and always will be a judgement call.

[rockyroad]

Incidental contact...I didn't see the play in question, but in most of these cases where it isn't called it's because the elbow wasn't thrown and it really isn't a PC foul, but neither is it a blocking foul - it's simply incidental contact. Looks ugly because the defender ended up bloody, but that's part of the game sometimes...

[SeanFitzRef]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Incidental contact...I didn't see the play in question, but in most of these cases where it isn't called it's because the elbow wasn't thrown and it really isn't a PC foul, but neither is it a blocking foul - it's simply incidental contact. Looks ugly because the defender ended up bloody, but that's part of the game sometimes...

So, A2 takes a shot, misses, B4 gets the rebound. A4 stays right with B4, who has his back to A4. B4 puts two hands on the ball under his chin, elbows out, and pivots without exerting any extra force beyond what is necessary to make the normal basketball move. A4 catches one in the chin, & goes down. No call?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by SeanFitzRef

So, A2 takes a shot, misses, B4 gets the rebound. A4 stays right with B4, who has his back to A4. B4 puts two hands on the ball under his chin, elbows out, and pivots without exerting any extra force beyond what is necessary to make the normal basketball move. A4 catches one in the chin, & goes down. No call?

Probably...if, in my judgement, B4 knew the defender was there and did it on purpose, I'll call a PC foul...if not, I got nothing...

[Raymond]

My own personal experience, if a defender is maintaining his space and not poking his face towards the offensive player I call a PC if contact is made with the elbow to the face. I've called a PC 2 times over the last 2 seasons and also one time I had a technical when the contact occured after my whistle for a foul. In each case I didn't deem the contact intentional or flagrant, but I did consider it severe enough that I felt a whistle was warranted (in the case of the technical the movement of the elbow was unnecessary b/c the play had been whistled dead).

I acquired this philosophy from a local D1, Sweet 16-level official who thinks that blows to the face need to be addressed from a game management perspective. He would rather err on the side of calling it too tight rather than risking retaliation later on. (in the case of the NIT final the defender immediately shoved the offensive player down and was rightfully called for an intentional foul)

Just his own personal philosphy which I choose to follow.

And before any one jumps to other extreme "what if" scenarios, I'm talking about the "elbows out, torso twisting" movement when an offensive player has 2 hands on the ball and she/he is being closing contested by a defender.

[eiguaram55ref]

Players With The Ball,time And Distance Doesn't Apply--but It's A
Judgement Of The Official If The Swinging Of His Elbow Has An Intention To Hurt Or The Player With The Ball Is Out Of His Body
Cylinder.

[SeanFitzRef]

I follow the same philosophy, BadNews. Just to keep the extra out of the game. If no contact is made, I address it with something verbal as soon as possible, without interrupting the flow of the game.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

one time I had a technical when the contact occured after my whistle for a foul. In each case I didn't deem the contact intentional or flagrant

Ummmmmm. . .

[SeanFitzRef]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Ummmmmm. . .

Chuck!!! Be Nice!!!!

LOL

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Ummmmmm. . .

what does ummmmm, mean???? Being the "grammar police" I would think you could be a little more eloquent.

but in that same vane,

ummmmmm, in the case of the technical, the contact wasn't intentional but I deemed the movement of his elbow unnecessary because I had blown my whistle for a foul on the defender. I felt A1's actions were wreckless and the elbow to the face could have been avoided. A1 was moving his elbow in an exxagerated manner during the live-action to bring attention to the fact he was being fouled by the defenders following a rebound. My partner (2-man mechanics) should have called a foul but he didn't so I came in with a whistle. Well after my whistle A1 continued his movement with his elbow and connected to B1's jaw.

My supervisor/assignor/commissioner was in attendance and agreed with my handling of that play.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

what does ummmmm, mean???? Being the "grammar police" I would think you could be a little more eloquent.

FED 4-19-1 NOTE, 10-3-8.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

what does ummmmm, mean???? Being the "grammar police" I would think you could be a little more eloquent.

but in that same vane,

ummmmmm, in the case of the technical, the contact wasn't intentional but I deemed the movement of his elbow unnecessary because I had blown my whistle for a foul on the defender. I felt A1's actions were wreckless and the elbow to the face could have been avoided. A1 was moving his elbow in an exxagerated manner during the live-action to bring attention to the fact he was being fouled by the defenders following a rebound. My partner (2-man mechanics) should have called a foul but he didn't so I came in with a whistle. Well after my whistle A1 continued his movement with his elbow and connected to B1's jaw.

My supervisor/assignor/commissioner was in attendance and agreed with my handling of that play.

Chuck's point was that the rules do NOT allow you call a contact dead-ball technical foul unless the contact IS flagrant or intentional.

NFHS rule 4-19-5(c)- "A technical foul is an intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead".



Your supervisor/assignor/commisioner doesn't know the rules either.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Incidental contact...I didn't see the play in question, but in most of these cases where it isn't called it's because the elbow wasn't thrown and it really isn't a PC foul, but neither is it a blocking foul - it's simply incidental contact. Looks ugly because the defender ended up bloody, but that's part of the game sometimes...

In a game I was playing once, I had the ball around the three point line towards the side. I had the ball to one side of my body and swung it high and to the other side as I started to drive. I blew by the defender towards the basket. I did a 360 slam over th e next defender...oops back to reality...I did a layup and looked back to see where the defender went...I expected him to be right with me. He was down on the floor where the play started with a huge gash on his brow...several stitches required Apparently, I got him with my elbow. I didn't even realize I touched him more than just a brush.