Would you ever call this BC

[Back In The Saddle]

This happened to me on Saturday.

Jump ball to start the game, A1 gains control of the tap with a dribble in his FC. But is so near the center line, and heading that direction that he crosses over into BC. It is a clear-cut BC violation. However, it happens within less than a second from the tap and while the typical post-jump confusion and muddle going on (i.e., players trying to get sorted out and moving in the right direction).

What do you think, call or no-call?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

What do you think, call or no-call?

Why would you not call it? Is not everyone watching this play? Now if you see it that might be another issue all together. I just know I have called BC violations when players throw the ball in the backcourt or they get mixed around to which way they are supposed to be going. I do not see why this is different.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

This happened to me on Saturday.

Jump ball to start the game, A1 gains control of the tap with a dribble in his FC. But is so near the center line, and heading that direction that he crosses over into BC. It is a clear-cut BC violation. However, it happens within less than a second from the tap and while the typical post-jump confusion and muddle going on (i.e., players trying to get sorted out and moving in the right direction).

What do you think, call or no-call?

Why not? It's a violation.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why would you not call it? Is not everyone watching this play? Now if you see it that might be another issue all together. I just know I have called BC violations when players throw the ball in the backcourt or they get mixed around to which way they are supposed to be going. I do not see why this is different.

Peace

Well, everybody in the gym is watching this play, but apparently nobody else actually saw it. If anyone else recognized it, they never said a word. Like I said, it was very quick and occurred in the midst of the post-jump muddle. So likely nobody else realized it.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Why not? It's a violation.

Rationale for calling it:

• It is, as you say, a violation
• You appear to be on top of your game from the very second play

Rationale for not calling it:

• It feels like a plumber play
• Do you really want to start a game with a violation that leaves everybody in the building wondering what just happened?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Rationale for calling it:

• It is, as you say, a violation
• You appear to be on top of your game from the very second play

So what. Why would you not call this if you know it is a violation? I would understand if you were guessing. If you clearly saw it, call the violation.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Rationale for not calling it:

• It feels like a plumber play
• Do you really want to start a game with a violation that leaves everybody in the building wondering what just happened?

Plumber?

If you do not call this (and everyone clearly saw it) now every other call is going to be in question. It is one thing to call a minor or suspect violation, but this is a no-brainer.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

• It feels like a plumber play
• Do you really want to start a game with a violation that leaves everybody in the building wondering what just happened?

If it was an obvious violation to you then you should have called it. F' everybody else in the gym. And you aren't looking for sh*t, in this case a small t*rd dropped at your feet. However if you were slightly unsure about it then I could see letting it pass. But what the rest of the gym thinks should not be a consideration.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Well, everybody in the gym is watching this play, but apparently nobody else actually saw it. If anyone else recognized it, they never said a word. Like I said, it was very quick and occurred in the midst of the post-jump muddle. So likely nobody else realized it.

Maybe "everybody else" wasn't sure that A1 dribbled the ball. Your "no call" confirmed that it was just a bat, and not a dribble, so there was no violation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Maybe "everybody else" wasn't sure that A1 dribbled the ball. Your "no call" confirmed that it was just a bat, and not a dribble, so there was no violation.

Not one of your clearer answers, Bob. I understand that you are pointing out that A1 may not have been in control of the ball yet, but a bat can certainly be considered a dribble, if the official deems it was a controlled movement.

4-15-1 . . . A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

4-15-3 . . . The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.


Of course, you have the following rules support on your side:

4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.


So what is the difference between a bat and a slap?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Rationale for calling it:

• It is, as you say, a violation
• You appear to be on top of your game from the very second play

Rationale for not calling it:

• It feels like a plumber play
• Do you really want to start a game with a violation that leaves everybody in the building wondering what just happened?

Nah, it's not a plumber play. With that mindset, you'd have to ignore all jump ball violations as well.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not one of your clearer answers, Bob. I understand that you are pointing out that A1 may not have been in control of the ball yet, but a bat can certainly be considered a dribble, if the official deems it was a controlled movement.

4-15-1 . . . A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

4-15-3 . . . The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.


Of course, you have the following rules support on your side:

4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.


So what is the difference between a bat and a slap?

I'm not sure a dribbler can slap the ball during a jump:

ART. 3 . . . The jump ball begins when the ball leaves the referee's hand(s) and ends when the touched ball contacts a nonjumper, the floor, a basket or backboard.

The jump ball ends the very instant the dribbler contacts the tapped ball, does it not? Then following through with a batting or slapping motion becomes part of the next play?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

[/list]Nah, it's not a plumber play. With that mindset, you'd have to ignore all jump ball violations as well.

Point taken

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I'm not sure a dribbler can slap the ball during a jump:

ART. 3 . . . The jump ball begins when the ball leaves the referee's hand(s) and ends when the touched ball contacts a nonjumper, the floor, a basket or backboard.

The jump ball ends the very instant the dribbler contacts the tapped ball, does it not? Then following through with a batting or slapping motion becomes part of the next play?

Excellent point. So only if the "dribbler" was a designated jumper are we sure that no violation occurred.

Otherwise we are back to judging player control. A player can slap or bat a ball prior to establishing player control following the jump, right? And that slap or bat doesn't have to constitute a dribble.

So I'd say that like most aspects of basketball officiating this call comes down to the official's judgment. If you believed that there was player control and hence a dribble, as you put in your original post, then I believe that you are honor-bound to call the violation. However, if you truly believe that the player had not yet established control, then you should leave it alone.