"Tail Wagging The Dog"

[BigUmp56]

I thought this excerpt from one of Carls articles is worthy of some discussion.


"That’s why some umpires are moving to the C side of the diamond with a runner on first only. They have a far easier time calling the steal of second; in addition, studies seem to show the angle for the first-base pick-off play is better in C than in B. Lots of umpires resist that innovation, though, because the coaches claim C is too far away. But isn’t that the tail wagging the dog?"


Any thoughts?

Tim.

[bob jenkins]

"They" might have a far easier time calling the steal, but I don't. The swipe tag is too easy to miss from C, imo.

What "studies" seem to show that the angle from C is better? (I'm not disputing the conclusion, btw)

C is farther than B. If (and I don't know that this is true), the angle is about the same, then closer (up until about 10' or so) is better.

[David B]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"They" might have a far easier time calling the steal, but I don't. The swipe tag is too easy to miss from C, imo.

What "studies" seem to show that the angle from C is better? (I'm not disputing the conclusion, btw)

C is farther than B. If (and I don't know that this is true), the angle is about the same, then closer (up until about 10' or so) is better.

I agree with Bob here. There's going to be many more plays made at first than second (we want to stay closer to first) and I see the tag much better from B than C.


Thanks
David

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"They" might have a far easier time calling the steal, but I don't. The swipe tag is too easy to miss from C, imo.

What "studies" seem to show that the angle from C is better? (I'm not disputing the conclusion, btw)

C is farther than B. If (and I don't know that this is true), the angle is about the same, then closer (up until about 10' or so) is better.

Bob, it's clear an umpire has to work a bit harder in B on a steal of second. That may be the rub for some people. I don't know.

(Even in 4-man, I prefer deep B on a steal. In 3-man, I slide into deep C, though, since it looks odd having both base umpires on the first base side of second.)

[mcrowder]

Count me as agreeing with this change.

Yes, there are more calls at 1st than at 2nd, but the degree to which my ability to make the call at 1st diminishes when changing to C from B is small, while the degree to which my ability to make the call at 2nd increases when making this change is well worth it.

The last coach that questioned my mechanics got to watch the rest of my mechanics from the parking lot. So I really don't much care how an individual coach may feel about whether I'm in B or C. No dog-wagging here.

[Durham]

While it is nice to discuss thoughts and changes to mechanics, the changes have to make sense and put us in a better position on most calls. Also, I would like to read about these studies, are they real or just someone’s observations in which we are not fully aware of all the things that went into them?

With a runner on first working 2 man, 3 man, or 4 man, the base umpire inside would be looking for a steal play, double play, and FPSR interference at second. In 2 man we add the pickoff at first.

For all 4 plays, it has been my experience that B is the best place to be, and deep B is better for all except the pickoff. When I work 3 man, most weekends, and I am forced to go to deep C, left handed hitter, I will more times than not swing back into the dirt to see the steal play, because C is just a bad place to be for the steal. A bad throw and you are blocked-out; all you can really see is the fielders back.

In 2 man with the pickoff, if you are half way between the mound and second then you will not have a better angle in C than in B. However, if you are someone that works deep, then you quite possibly could, but if you make the adjustment and move up you will be fine.

Thoughts?

[Tim C]

"When I work 3 man, most weekends, and I am forced to go to deep C, left handed hitter, . . . "

Are you saying that the handedness of the hitter dictates where you locate yourself as a base umpire?

If that is what you are saying could you direct me to a place in either the NAPL manual, the CCA Mechanics Manual, or the NFHS Umpire manual that offer this as an accepted mechanic?

Thanks,

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"When I work 3 man, most weekends, and I am forced to go to deep C, left handed hitter, . . . "

Are you saying that the handedness of the hitter dictates where you locate yourself as a base umpire?

If that is what you are saying could you direct me to a place in either the NAPL manual, the CCA Mechanics Manual, or the NFHS Umpire manual that offer this as an accepted mechanic?

Thanks,

The 2006 CCA shows everything from C or deep C, however on page 121 it states,"U3 has the option to position himself on either side of second basewith a right-handed batter. This optional position may be used with conference coordinator approval."

I think that the thought process here is much like U2 positioning in 4 man in MLB when U2 is in the outfield, U2 goes opposite the hitter's handedness for a better angle on a HR ball. The idea as I have been taught is getting away from a pull hitters strength. Right or wrong that is the thought process.

I can tell you that all five conference coordinators on the west coast have us using this. I was corrected on my second series of the year by my crew chief for trying to stay in deep B with a left handed batter and a runner on 1st. I knew why he corrected me before he told me, but I think C is a ****ty place to be on a steal play, so I was taught to swing back into the dirt to get the angle I need, like working the plate.

[SanDiegoSteve]

This has been discussed before ad nauseum, but since it has been brought up again, here we go.

I have never worked C with a runner at first only, but I don't think it would affect the quality of my pickoff call in the least. I work C with 1st and 3rd, and I haven't blown a pickoff at 1st due to the extra 15 feet. The angle from C does naturally open you up without having to take those forward steps that are required (and hard to do properly) from B. The angle you have in C is the same one you get after stepping forward then pivoting toward the base in B, without the stepping forward part.

It is by far better to call the steal of 2nd from C, IMO. First, the angle to the base is a natural 90 degrees, and you aren't looking up the runner's backside like you are starting in B. Second, you don't have to gauge the catcher's throw or take it over your shoulder, because right handed catchers (99.9% of all catchers) tend to miss to the 1st base side of 2nd base, and often nearly decapitate the BU. I find myself trying to get farther left in order to get the angle I want, which puts me extremely close to the path of the throw. Starting in C opens you up to the play, starting with a drop step with the left foot, then just follow the play into the cut, and voila, perfect position. A simple lean left or right, or a little movement on an off-line throw, and you can see every possible scenario.

And before you ask, I didn't learn all this at the L.C. Combine!

[Durham]

Again, just my thoughts. I have had two plays this season where i was in Deep C and had this steal play where the ball was up the line a little and I could not tell if the runner had been tagged or not. I outted the runner both times, but when I asked U1 once he said that the SS missed the runner by about 6 inches. I felt like he might have missed him, but I wasn't sure so I grabbed the cleaner end of the stick. Umpire->fielders back->glove/ball->runner is not a very good angle, but the best I could get from C.

[SanDiegoSteve]

When I speak of C, I am referring to 2-man depth C, not deep C. I can see the problem of angle from deep C, as you are a bit too far left and can be screened out by the fielder.

[Durham]

Yeah Steve that is probably it! I am thinking about it and I have always just worked 2 man they way they taught me, because I figured that someone smarter than me did it that way for longer than I have been around.

If a guy has a better way of doing it, and his group is ok with it, then do them. But if a guy wants to move up then they better know how the High School playoff, JC, DII, or DI coordinators wanted it worked.

[socalblue1]

From deep 'C' - step up and slide toward 1B as the first move, then pivot and turn with the throw.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE=BigUmp56]I thought this excerpt from one of Carls articles is worthy of some discussion.


"That’s why some umpires are moving to the C side of the diamond with a runner on first only. They have a far easier time calling the steal of second; in addition, studies seem to show the angle for the first-base pick-off play is better in C than in B. Lots of umpires resist that innovation, though, because the coaches claim C is too far away. But isn’t that the tail wagging the dog?"

The "B" "C" Preference will almost always generate good discussion. IMO, the point of Papa C's article is that some umpires do not want to change mechanics simply because they are worried about what the coach is going to say, hence the phrase the tail wagging the dog.
One of the reasons for doing Pre-Season games is not only to get comfortable with the zone (we have been off for a while) but to try new things. Be open minded and try it and see if you like it.

As for me, I'm in "C" with R2 or R2/R3 LESS than 2 outs because the tag-up at second belongs to the BU and I can line myself up better in the "C" position. If there are 2 outs I go to "B" unless we only have R2.

With R1 or R1/R3 I prefer "B" because of the DP. For me I can get in much better position from the "B" slot for the back end of the DP which is usually a banger than from the C position.

Botton Line in Pre-Season Experiment with things such as a new plate stance. "B" Position vs. "C" position, etc.

IMO, the point of Papa C's article was that "Coaches should not govern where we position ourselves". That's up to our evaluator.

Pete Booth

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Count me as agreeing with this change.

Yes, there are more calls at 1st than at 2nd, but the degree to which my ability to make the call at 1st diminishes when changing to C from B is small, while the degree to which my ability to make the call at 2nd increases when making this change is well worth it.

The last coach that questioned my mechanics got to watch the rest of my mechanics from the parking lot. So I really don't much care how an individual coach may feel about whether I'm in B or C. No dog-wagging here.

Many umpires that have made this move are the same ones that can't run fast enough to get into position for the call. I'm certain that I'm old enough to be your father, but I learned game management a long time ago. Anticipating plays and being prepared for them is part of any good umpire's routine.

Your last paragraph just strikes me as arrogant and sad. If you work a college schedule, you would certainly care what a coach thinks about your mechanics and attitude. SInce they have a say in your evaluation, you'd better believe that their opinions count. Unorthodox mechanics may suit your game, but that doesn't mean that you are correct.

I'll echo Bob's sentiments, the angle is almost the same, but the distance is greater. The swipe tag at first is far more crucial than the banger at second. If the kid is out going back to first, he'll never have a chance to show his speed. Even the pro school robots know that they should work the deep "B" for runners on first. Those guys are quick and aware.

Tossing coaches for questioning such unique positioning shows lack of confidence and smacks of being an OOO.