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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 02:25pm
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fouled while "shooting" at wrong basket

I'm 99% certain I know the right answer to this, but I could use some rule citations to support it:

Let's say a player has a total mind freeze after halftime and momentarily forgets his team is now shooting at the opposite basket.

He's inbounded the ball and immediately hoists up a jumper at the wrong hoop. His defender sees him pulling up and through sheer instinct puts a hand in his face. The shot goes in and the defender is whistled for a foul while the shooter was in the act of shooting.

What happens next?
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 02:38pm
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Somebody have a casebook handy? I found this in the archives: Casebook 4.40.2
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 03:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
I'm 99% certain I know the right answer to this, but I could use some rule citations to support it:

Let's say a player has a total mind freeze after halftime and momentarily forgets his team is now shooting at the opposite basket.

He's inbounded the ball and immediately hoists up a jumper at the wrong hoop. His defender sees him pulling up and through sheer instinct puts a hand in his face. The shot goes in and the defender is whistled for a foul while the shooter was in the act of shooting.

What happens next?
Please indicate, specifically, the order of events.
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 03:13pm
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No problem

Shot. Foul. Ball passes through hoop.
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 03:14pm
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This is not a "try" so there is no "act of shooting." This is a non-shooting foul. The ball becomes dead on the whistle, so the basket doesn't count unless it was successful prior to the whisle. Right after halftime, it would be unlikely that the "shooter's" team would already be in the bonus, so the shooter's team gets the ball OOB, hopefully headed toward the correct basket this time. - a coach's opinion
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 03:18pm
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I don't have my casebook handy (it's at home gathering dust in the off-season), so I can't tell you what that case addresses. But I can tell you this is not a shooting foul, because there is no shot. In your play, this would be a common foul, the ball becomes dead immediately, therefore no basket, and the ball would be awarded OOB at the spot nearest the foul (assuming there's no bonus yet because you said this was right after halftime).

The key is knowing the definition of a shot. An attempt or try can only be at a team's own basket; therefore, since the player wasn't making the attempt at his basket, it's considered no different than, say, a pass.
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 03:24pm
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Assuming there's no delayed backcourt violation (delayed not by rule, but by the officials not realizing it occured in the confusion), the ball became dead immediately upon the foul (not in the act of shooting, since a try means attempting at one's OWN basket), so any basket, if made, would not count. This foul, if called, would count toward the bonus and the fouled player would be awarded bonus free throws if his or her team was in the bonus. Since you said this is "after halftime" (i.e. right after), that's not likely, so we probably go with a spot throw in with the officials telling them which way to go!

Guys, if this happens and you had a backcourt violation (either by over and back or 10 seconds), and you just didn't realize it until after the foul occured, I would strongly suggest you enforce that, which wipes out the foul. Remember, contact is ignored during a dead ball unless intentional or flagrant.

One off-shoot from this: what mechanic (i.e. course of action, not signal) do you use when someone shoots into the wrong basket and scores, with no contact or other violation? I blow the whistle, count the basket, and point in the direction of the team who just shot, giving them an end line running throw in.
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 03:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

One off-shoot from this: what mechanic (i.e. course of action, not signal) do you use when someone shoots into the wrong basket and scores, with no contact or other violation? I blow the whistle, count the basket, and point in the direction of the team who just shot, giving them an end line running throw in.
Why blow this whistle? What part of this makes what happened a dead ball, violation, etc.? Would you do this if someone accidentally tipped the ball into his own basket on a rebound? I know one thing, if I'm a coach and earlier in the game you blew the whistle, stopping the clock, because some kid was an idiot and shot in the wrong basket, if late in the game my kid accidentally tipped in a rebound and say, put my team down 1, with only a few seconds to go, I'd be screaming bloody murder for you to blow the whistle and stop the clock.
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 03:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmp44
Why blow this whistle? What part of this makes what happened a dead ball, violation, etc.? Would you do this if someone accidentally tipped the ball into his own basket on a rebound? I know one thing, if I'm a coach and earlier in the game you blew the whistle, stopping the clock, because some kid was an idiot and shot in the wrong basket, if late in the game my kid accidentally tipped in a rebound and say, put my team down 1, with only a few seconds to go, I'd be screaming bloody murder for you to blow the whistle and stop the clock.
The rationale for the whistle is to correct the direction of play.

An accidental tip-in is very different. In this play, all players are going the correct direction. The stoppage is not required as everyone knows which team should not get the ball, and which way they should be going.

In the play described, it is likely that the wrong team will grab the ball out of the net, inbound it and begin traveling the wrong direction.

As for the coach crabbing, what else is new.
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 03:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmp44
I'd be screaming bloody murder for you to blow the whistle and stop the clock.
And I would gladly accomodate you by stopping the clock and forming a letter T with my hands...

Grail beat me to it - the purpose of stopping the clock is to correct the direction of play. So, let's say A1 accidentally goes the wrong way and puts the ball in B's basket. B1 spaces out and goes to take the ball OOB for the throw-in. A1 has a sudden epiphany (probably because his coach is yelling at him) and goes to get the ball for the throw-in as well. Now A1 and B1 are fighting for the ball OOB. What do you do then?

Stopping play and getting both teams corrected as soon as possible is the best way to handle this. And, this is much different than an accidental tip-in.
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 06:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
1) Assuming there's no delayed backcourt violation (delayed not by rule, but by the officials not realizing it occured in the confusion), the ball became dead immediately upon the foul (not in the act of shooting, since a try means attempting at one's OWN basket), so any basket, if made, would not count.
Guys, if this happens and you had a backcourt violation (either by over and back or 10 seconds), and you just didn't realize it until after the foul occured, I would strongly suggest you enforce that, which wipes out the foul. Remember, contact is ignored during a dead ball unless intentional or flagrant.
Coupla problems....the biggest being that's there's absolutely no rules justification to do what you're proposing. Bad advice iow.

1) There is no such animal as a "DELAYED BACKCOURT VIOLATION". If you don't call a violation when it happens, you can't call it retroactively. See case book play 5.2.3; That's the pertinent rules citation. Just get 'em going the right way.

2) Once the foul occurs, you simply enforce it. There's no rules justification anywhere that would allow you to wipe out the foul. To the contrary, case book play 4.41.2 sez that you call the foul.

3) Your quote that contact is ignored during a dead ball unless intentional or flagrant is completely irrelevant. The contact in this play occurred during a LIVE ball. At no time during the play was contact during a dead ball mentioned.
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Old Wed Apr 26, 2006, 02:32am
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My two cents:
1. I agree with everything JR wrote.
2. Here's the case book play requested (the number has changed in the newest version):

4.41.2 SITUATION: A1 becomes confused and throws the ball at the wrong basket. A1 is fouled by B1 and the ball goes into the basket. Is this a successful basket? If A1 missed, would A1 be awarded two free throws for the foul by B1? RULING: No goal. The ball became dead when the foul occurred. When a player throws at the opponent's basket, it is not a try. If the team is in the bonus when B1 fouled A1, A1 is given either a one-and-one attempt or two free throws at Team A's basket. If Team A was not in the bonus, then the ball is awarded to Team A for a throw-in at the out-of-bounds spot nearest the foul. (7-5-5)

3. Texas Aggie is EXACTLY correct on the proper mechanic to use when a team scores in the wrong goal due to confusion. This is detailed on page 21 of the Simplified and Illustrated book from the NFHS.

"4-5-2 Number 4 is confused and dunks the ball in B's basket. The covering official stops play after the dunk and credits the two points to Team B. Team A will then be given the ball for a throw-in from anywhere outside the end line."

An accidental tip-in requires no stoppage as all the players know the proper direction of play. Just make sure that the correct team makes the throw-in.
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Old Wed Apr 26, 2006, 11:52am
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The "delayed backcourt violation" was a description and not a basketball term. In other words, what I was getting at was a play like this (make sure you are clear on what I'm saying):

Ball is in A's frontcourt. Everyone gets confused (start of the half, perhaps) and A1 goes from his frontcourt into his backcourt on a breakaway. B1 fouls A1 as A1 is going in for a layup. Referee signals foul while umpire comes running in and clears up the issue: A1 shot at his opponent's basket, so there's certainly no free throws or made shot. R/U talk and decide that the ball should have become dead when A1 committed the backcourt violation. That's where I'm putting the ball into play at the division line, B's ball. No foul.

An official can enforce a violation, even if he doesn't realize it immediately. All you have to say is, "coach, I got turned around, and then realized there was a violation prior to the foul." That wouldn't be any different than a trail coming in on a lead who just called a foul and saying, "the offensive player traveled before the contact." In the scenario above, it could be that the Umpire likely knew that A1 committed a backcourt violation, but wanted to confirm with the Referee that he or she was actually in their frontcourt first. Just because it would take a few more seconds doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.
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Old Wed Apr 26, 2006, 01:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
1) Ball is in A's frontcourt. Everyone gets confused (start of the half, perhaps) and A1 goes from his frontcourt into his backcourt on a breakaway. B1 fouls A1 as A1 is going in for a layup. Referee signals foul while umpire comes running in and clears up the issue: A1 shot at his opponent's basket, so there's certainly no free throws or made shot. R/U talk and decide that the ball should have become dead when A1 committed the backcourt violation. That's where I'm putting the ball into play at the division line, B's ball. No foul.
That's nice. And what do you do if you don't catch that A violation until B goes the other way and scores or misses also? Flip a coin to see what team you're gonna call the backcourt violation against? Again.... you have absolutely NO rules basis to do what you're suggesting. Aamof, you're completely going against the written rules(i.e. the case plays already cited) if you try to do what you're advocating, all you are doing is making up your own rules and ignoring the ones that we already have. Somehow, I really don't think that's the right way to handle this situation. Bad advice imo.
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Old Wed Apr 26, 2006, 07:23pm
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It's so much easier to call the common foul here. It's the easiest explanation. It's the quickest resolution. And, most importantly, it's what the rules call for.
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